Chinas best dynastic military?

PLA by far.

Reasons: PLA has the most successful track record in wars. For the majority of the dynasties, they were in a position of relative strength against the "barbarians" they were fighting, in terms of technology, manpower, and resources. Yet even then, most dynasties won only a portion of their wars. Compare that to the PLA, fighting against immensely superior forces like the KMT (victory), the Japanese Imperial Army (draw), the Americans in the Korean War (draw nominally, but considering the sheer lopsidedness of the forces, a victory for the Chinese, and the first one since the string of defeats going back to the 1800s), the Indians (victory), the Vietnamese (draw), and the Russians (draw). In most of these engagements, the PLA didn't have the superiority of technology, resources, and manpower that characterized the militaries of the dynasties, but it still prevailed. Tactically, the PLA achieved some of the greatest feats in the world, like the Long March, the offensive from the Yalu (resulting in the greatest retreat in U.S. military history), Xu Xiangqian's defeat of Yan Xishan in Shanxi, and the lopsided Chinese Civil War.

PLA isn't Dynastic by any means.

yuxuan said:

PLA by far.

Reasons: PLA has the most successful track record in wars. For the majority of the dynasties, they were in a position of relative strength against the "barbarians" they were fighting, in terms of technology, manpower, and resources. Yet even then, most dynasties won only a portion of their wars. Compare that to the PLA, fighting against immensely superior forces like the KMT (victory), the Japanese Imperial Army (draw), the Americans in the Korean War (draw nominally, but considering the sheer lopsidedness of the forces, a victory for the Chinese, and the first one since the string of defeats going back to the 1800s), the Indians (victory), the Vietnamese (draw), and the Russians (draw). In most of these engagements, the PLA didn't have the superiority of technology, resources, and manpower that characterized the militaries of the dynasties, but it still prevailed. Tactically, the PLA achieved some of the greatest feats in the world, like the Long March, the offensive from the Yalu (resulting in the greatest retreat in U.S. military history), Xu Xiangqian's defeat of Yan Xishan in Shanxi, and the lopsided Chinese Civil War.

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The Ming army had an infinitely tougher job when starting the Ming dynasty than the PLA. They started out as peasants wielding nothing but farm tools and wooden sticks, because the Mongol rulers wouldn't let Han people to have more than one kitchen knife amongst five families. PLA at least had rifles which were real weapons.

xuansu said:

The Ming army had an infinitely tougher job when starting the Ming dynasty than the PLA. They started out as peasants wielding nothing but farm tools and wooden sticks, because the Mongol rulers wouldn't let Han people to have more than one kitchen knife amongst five families. PLA at least had rifles which were real weapons.

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The Mongols didn't have many guns at that time either, and you'd be surprised on how many Red army and later 8th Route soldiers were armed with sticks and farm tools.

crobato said:

PLA isn't Dynastic by any means.

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If you are really into that "A new kind of army, a people's army, an army that serves the interest of the people rather than that of the ruling few" stuff.

The title thread says "dynastic". That means nothing above 1911.

Some comment about the Song military.

There is a lot of discussion about the "weakness" of the Song Dynasty, although in the end, it was probably one of the most tenacious.

1. The Song Dynasty has a lot of checks and balances in its governing. It can be said that among Dynasties, its the least authoritarian or totalitarian. One of the reasons why it has so many checks and balances is to prevent the military from becoming overly powerful, which either results in rebellion, coups, usurption and the capacity to eat a disproportionate share of the budget. Rebellion, coups, warlordism, and overtaxed peasantry has often the root causes of dynastic cycle decay and collapse, particularly from the Han to the Tang. This lesson is something fresh on the minds of the Song.

But this had negative effects on the Song military. As a result, not too competent civilians result in leading armies, with disastrous results. There has been a number of exceptional generals in the Song Dynasty, most renowned is General Yue Fei, who is undefeated in all his battles. But the government becomes very suspicious of popular generals, since in the past, populist generals have been the ones that led to coups and warlordism. As a result, exceptional and virtuous generals become victims of court intrigue, and to which sadly Yue Fei lost his life---the story behind it has now become a popular Chinese legend and later brought Yue Fei to the status of a semi-god or saint.

The Song is also the pinnacle of Chinese culture, and every noble wants to become a scholar, artist or official. This is compared to previous dynasties where nobility are tasked to become professional soldiers and lead armies. As a result there is a disdain to all things military.

One of the results is that the Song is the first Dynasty to use a professional standing army. However, many of these professionals---mercenaries, nomads, etc,---are of questionable loyalty and character, despite their skill in battle. In contrast, previous Dynasties use a system of conscription and hereditary soldiery (note the ballad of Hua Mulan).

When the Song Dynasty they were never able to control much of the northern plains and grasslands unlike the Tang Dynasty before. So unlike the Tang Dynasty, they never had the grassland resources to build a cavalry army. Rather these lands were taken up by three kingdoms, the Xixia (Tangut or proto Tibetan), the Liao (Khitan or proto Mongol), and the Jin (Jurchen or Proto Manchu). All three excelled in the use of cavalry, especially the heavy knights of the Jin.

Despite of all their problems, the Song countered using a combination of technology---they were the first to use gunpowder in combat; commandos with special long daos like the zhammadao or pudaos---and not the least, a strategy of appeasement. In practicality, appeasement may have its advantages---it would cost far less to pay tribute than to pay up to a standing mercenary army. At times, it more than paid for it too, since the Song in many periods also enjoyed healthy trade with its neighbors and opponents.

But the most important thing the Song did was to develop probably the world's first professional and standing navy, which is used to protect the sea routes to Japan, Korea, and to South East Asia. The same navy, a specialist in amphibious and riverine warfare, had also managed to check advances of their northern enemies to the south.

Despite it all, unlike other "stronger" Dynasties, the Song Dynasty never felled by a crude peasant revolt. It would last for 320 years, and it would take the greatest military power the world has ever known to finally defeat the Song, and through a war that lasted for three generations at that. Even Genghiz Khan never conquered the Song during his lifetime.

Re: Chinas best dynastic military? Viets won against Mongl savages!!!

Clive: True, the mongols were defeated by the Viets, but the Viets paid tribute in the end,

Luong: Because of our peaceful nature and culture, we decided to avoid war by not humiliating the defeated Mongol/"chinese." We could easily NOT pay anything to the blood-thristy savages (and those evil savages couldn't do anything about it), but our peaceful nature wanted peace.


Clive: the mongols also destroyed hanoi 2x...

Luong: This was an extremely clever physcological trap the brilliant Viets laid for the Mongols. There were many Viets who felt the Mongols were not the blood-thirsty barbarians everyone claimed them to be and so these people wanted peace with the Mongols. But the great Viet general Duc Tran Huong Dao (which means "Holy Saint Huong Tran") devised a most brilliant plan to "lose" Ha-Noi to the Mongols whereby they would take and destroy it while murdering all the innocent peace-loving morons inside. And all these evil things the Mongols did, much to the satisfication of Gen. Tran.

This caused a national uproar among all the Viets and we quickly rallied to fight the Mongols. Contrary to popular belief, we destroyed the Mongols FOUR (4) TIMES, not three, as was discovered by my father.

So "losing" Ha-Noi was a planned strategy that did its trick; sort of like the planned Pearl Harbor incident which brought America into WWII. Also, we got back our capitol twice as was planned.

The Sung and Tong (and other "Chinese") never got back their capitals in such a short time. Only when we Viets gave hope to the rest of mankind did others dared to fight the "invicible" Mongols and brought an end to their huge Empire. Thank you, JESUS!!!


Clive: ...and destroyed the vietnamese army 2x in the field, Tran Thui mobilized the peasants and remnants of his army to ambush the mongols on their way back to china.

Luong: Don't be ridiculous, having your army be destroyed twice means the end of your country. No amount of untrained peasants with shovels and clubs could replace an army. I would like to see where you got this strange info from, the biased Mongol records maybe? LOL


Clove: However, you miss one big point, the mongols did much more damage to Vietnam than vice versa...

Luong: Excuse me? LOL!!! Please re-read what I wrote above about us giving hope to an enslaved world by defeating the Mongols and thereby destroying their whole Empire, the world's biggest empire EVER! Yes, the Mongol barbarians destroyed a few towns and villages, but we totally DESTROYED their whole Empire!!! LOL!!!

So you want to weight the two items again? I'm sure the scale's tipped totally in the Viets' favor. Praise Lord JESUS!!! Amen.


Clive:...this is the reason why tran thui decided to
continue the tributary relationship with Khubilai...

Luong: NOPE! Wrong again! Please reread my first response on top. We paid those small little tributes because we didn't want to re-kick the Mongol's butts (and their "chinese" slaves butts) back to Mongolia. Again, our superior peaceful culture dictates that we should always find a peaceful solution to every problem as reasonable possible. Also, since we defeated the Mongols and their "chinese" slaves FOUR (4) times, we really didn't need to pay anyone anything, but we did to save their silly faces. LOL!!!


Clive: ...there was a good film about this which was shown in Vietnam in 1994, I saw it in Haiphong, but I could not find the tape or dvd.

Luong: Yeah, find me the name of that film and their idiotic people who made it. I'll teach them all history lessons for FREE!!! LOL!!!


Clive: The mongols lost the battles but won the war.

Luong: What a totally stupid comment! This is the most stupidiest thing I've ever heard in my whole life, Clive!!! Viets won ALL FOUR (4) TIMES!!! Under Lord JESUS's protection and love, we will fight and win all wars!!!

Remember that we Viets are the only race in the world who NEVER lost a war in our history!!! THANK YOU JESUS!!!

A small question about that.

Why no "Han" I can see a lot of dynastic but no that vote?