Chinas best dynastic military?

China's most glourious military in dynasties

  • Total voters
    145
W

whsie

Just Hatched
Registered Member
the Tang. I couldn't believe my eyes when someone earlier said that the Tang was military wise weak. I believe they confused the Tang Dynasty with the Song Dynasty or they just didn't read their books. The Tang at its peak even surpassed the Han Dynasty in terms of expansion.
If someone wants a rough idea of Tang's peak including vassals, here it is-
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This is around 668, 669. The Western Turks were subdued and completly vassalized in 657 after being defeated by Su Ding Fang 苏定方. Earlier in 648, half of Western Turkish land were already vassalized. The Eastern Turks were defeated by Li Jing 李靖 and Li Shiji 李世勣 in 630. Korea was conquered by Li Shiji 李世勣 and Xue Ren Gui 薛仁貴 in 668. Tibet (qinghai area) was defeated a few times before the marriage by Li Jing 李靖 and Hou Jun Ji 侯君集 in 635. Then a lot of the Tarim Basin and Central Asia was took down by Huo Jun Ji 侯君集, most noticeably GaoChang. Vietnam was also taken down. Obviously, this proves that the Tang was a military might. Furthermore, the Tang was probably the peak of the Han ethnic calavary based army. Part of the reason why they're so successful early on was because their army was a calvary based army. When Li Jing made the turning point against the Xieli Khan of the Eastern Turks, Li Jing used 3000 light calvary to raid Dingxiang and caught Xieli by suprise. Of course, he was suprised how fast Li Jing got to him.
Later, after Tang Taizong and Gaozong, Wu Zetian took over a made a huge mess with the empire seen in the photo. The Khitans rebelled, Tibet rebelled, the Turks rebelled, Korea rebelled. Practically the whole country came crashing down in terms of land. It wouldn't be until Tang Xuanzong that we see him expand to Persia's border again, which is already noticeably smaller than the first great expansion under Tang Taizong.
 
A

A Pirate

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The mighty military power of Tang was relying on its superior economic strength. From the performance of the army alone, I think Qin was better.
 
S

sunchips

Just Hatched
Registered Member
T-U-P said:
i chose the Ming because it had the largest navy in the history of china. also there was an extensive use and development of firearms during that time in china, Qing just abandoned the firearms that Ming made and went back to the trusty swords.

and also my last name is Zhu, if anyone have noticed. :cool:
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How extensive was the use of firearms, and how advanced were they compared to the firearms of Europe? (i.e. approx. what European time period)?
 
S

sunchips

Just Hatched
Registered Member
whsie said:
the Tang. I couldn't believe my eyes when someone earlier said that the Tang was military wise weak. I believe they confused the Tang Dynasty with the Song Dynasty or they just didn't read their books. The Tang at its peak even surpassed the Han Dynasty in terms of expansion.
If someone wants a rough idea of Tang's peak including vassals, here it is-
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is around 668, 669. The Western Turks were subdued and completly vassalized in 657 after being defeated by Su Ding Fang 苏定方. Earlier in 648, half of Western Turkish land were already vassalized. The Eastern Turks were defeated by Li Jing 李靖 and Li Shiji 李世勣 in 630. Korea was conquered by Li Shiji 李世勣 and Xue Ren Gui 薛仁貴 in 668. Tibet (qinghai area) was defeated a few times before the marriage by Li Jing 李靖 and Hou Jun Ji 侯君集 in 635. Then a lot of the Tarim Basin and Central Asia was took down by Huo Jun Ji 侯君集, most noticeably GaoChang. Vietnam was also taken down. Obviously, this proves that the Tang was a military might. Furthermore, the Tang was probably the peak of the Han ethnic calavary based army. Part of the reason why they're so successful early on was because their army was a calvary based army. When Li Jing made the turning point against the Xieli Khan of the Eastern Turks, Li Jing used 3000 light calvary to raid Dingxiang and caught Xieli by suprise. Of course, he was suprised how fast Li Jing got to him.
Later, after Tang Taizong and Gaozong, Wu Zetian took over a made a huge mess with the empire seen in the photo. The Khitans rebelled, Tibet rebelled, the Turks rebelled, Korea rebelled. Practically the whole country came crashing down in terms of land. It wouldn't be until Tang Xuanzong that we see him expand to Persia's border again, which is already noticeably smaller than the first great expansion under Tang Taizong.
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In the map shown, is the dark color also part of Tang empire, or is it "allies" of china, or something? Also, I remember reading about some "battle of talas" somewhere...that was in Kasakstan right? How did China shrink so much in 100 years, if the wikipedia map above was in ~669?
 
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S

sunchips

Just Hatched
Registered Member
J T Z said:
Tang was never a military power house. it is known for its culture and science. Song was small and weak beacuse of all the boarder confilct with other chinese ethnic groups. and none of those nations during Song era was really big and well funded. thats why mongols just rolled through them all. Of course the mongols were amazing too.

It basicly should boils down to: Han, Ming, Qing. Han is 3rd largest dynasty ever at its peak if you count in yuan. and during its time Kao Tsu, wudi and other empreors have expanded the boarder and opened up trade routes.(the silkroad) For its time it was no doubt one of the great powers. Even the Romans at the time couldnt match them.(206 b.c. - 220 A.D.) At that time the Romans were involved in Macedonian Wars. And these wars for the most of time were at a small scale thats fought between Greek city-states, and Syria. Kao Tsu also pushed out the Huns that was in western china and beyond, which enabled the silkroad to be open. Huns later dominated most of europe and the Romans couldnt really stop them. So in terms of territory size and amry size and technology Han at its time was far greater than any nation.

As Ming and Qing, I think FriedRiceNSpice explained pretty well on why it was a great military power.

The problem with most Chinese dyansty is that none of the rulers were ambitious enough. Han, Tang, Ming even part of Qing could easily conqure every other nation near by. And project its power over europe and even find america. But due to that they never got anywhere. and even for the ones that did explore, and seeked out others. because of china's technology were so much more advenced compare to other powers at the time. The explorers comes back with nothing new, and the king/empreor would assume that every other nation around the world are nothing compare to him therefore compeletly ignore other nations, unless they come to him. Over the time this settles in and became the close door policy. And China became more and more isolated and shortsighted that it stop most of technological and civil advencements. Until rest of the world caught up and surpassed them.
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Isn't it national chinese culture, and identity to be non-warring? That when we were strong, we jsut wanted security for our own peoples? I mean, that's why we installed the tributary system is it not, so that we wouldn't have to "conquer" anyone, only to "control" them?
 
F

fishhead

Banned Idiot
sunchips said:
Isn't it national chinese culture, and identity to be non-warring? That when we were strong, we jsut wanted security for our own peoples? I mean, that's why we installed the tributary system is it not, so that we wouldn't have to "conquer" anyone, only to "control" them?
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No, it's just the mentality developed after the Tang. Before Tang Chinese were pretty much war-loving stock, so Tang is the turning point.

Since Qing and Han, Chinese had been expanding their empire quickly. But at the Sui time, the war with Gaogouli went badly, led to the uprising and fall of Sui. Tang was a pretty military mind dynasty, all local governors were local military commands as well, with the great power. This administrative structure made Tang exetremely powerful toward the outside, but unfortunately also led to the military rebellions by those commands, exactly like Roman Empire.

Song changed everything, they set up the first civilian administration structure in the world - civilian leading military, and followed by Ming. That made Chinese losing the military competency since then.
 
N

NelsonChu

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hello! i am a Chinese from Hong Kong.Although this website seems not the place i suppose to be, i hope i can provide useful information in the view of a Chinese.
From this vote, it seems that most guys are familiar with China's history.Yes,
from the text books i learnt, the strongest was Tang.
 
FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
Also, I remember reading about some "battle of talas" somewhere...that was in Kasakstan right
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The Battle of Talas was a relatively small battle fought between the Arab Abbasid Caliphate and the Tang Dynasty for control of Central Asia. The Arabs defeated the Chinese, who's commander managed to escape the battle with the majority of the Tang regular army soldiers. Following the battle, many Turkic tribes in the area switched their allegiance from the Chinese to the Arabs. This also started the conversion of the Turkic tribes in the area to Islam. After the battle, the Chinese made no further attempts to expand into Centra Asia. However, their influence in the region remained strong, and in future conflicts, such as the An Lushan Rebellion, they were still able to call on auxiliary troops from Central Asia. It wasn't until the collapse of the Tang dynasty did China begin to lose influence in Central Asia. Some claim that the Arabs learned the secret of making paper from Chinese POWs captured during the battle.
 
T-U-P

T-U-P

The Punisher
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
sunchips said:
How extensive was the use of firearms, and how advanced were they compared to the firearms of Europe? (i.e. approx. what European time period)?
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well, firearms were developed in Song Dynasty and by the time of Zhu Yuan Zhang (the first emperor of Ming) the Chinese already had canons and various small arms, and he did use them in his army to conquer the Yuan Dynasty.

Some time period comparison:
Ming Dynasty: 1368~1644
Fall of Constantinople to the Turks: 1453 (where bombards were used extensively by the Turks)
Development of Matchlock in the West: mid-1400's
 
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