Chinas best dynastic military?
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FriedRiceNSpice
Captain
muyang523 said:
It won't be the case for the People's Republic of China!
Every great nation/empire/dynasty has its rise, maturity, and fall. The main reason many dynasties fell previously in China was because of corruption. The emperor wanted everything to himself and built big projects using slave labourers. Or the emperor's subordinates were very corrupted and started taxing the people like crazy. This resulted in many peasant uprisings which overthrew the old government and installed a new one that thinks for the people. But over time this government will become corrupt as well and history repeats itself. That's why the CCP either needs to crack down on corruption more, or have multi party elections.
I voted for the Warring State because there's a lot of famous battles involved. I don't think the voting instruction is quite clear whether it's asking for the best/famous military time or a good army
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would definitely vote for it if it's there.
I was wondering why the Han dynasty wasn't involve in this poll. I would definitely vote for it if it's there.
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J T Z said:
With all due respect, I beg to differ. In terms of military power, there is only one time in Han(under Han Wu Di) that china is strong. Also, the military organization in Han is obsolete and ineffective. On the paper it works fine: with every peasant in china as a soldier, china will have millions. However, as Qian Mu(钱穆）and many other notorious historians pointed out: that everyone is a solider effectively equates none is a soldier. The poor training, poor equipment and poor morale is inevitable given the organization method of military of Han.
On the other hand, Tang has a different approach. By organizing militaries as self-supplied production units(府兵制), the training and the equipement of military improved with no burden on goverment. Although the organizaiton method rotten and deterorated latter on due to human failures, the first half of Tang(初唐-盛唐) was arguably the strongest period of chinese military.
As a chinese myself, I do admire the conquer of Han and other dynasties. However, a more clear look at the history reveals that Tang is the zenith of Chinese civilization for almost all aspects with no exception of military.
mindreader
New Member
FriedRiceNSpice said:
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars, is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps. There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without question, as the worst dynasty ever.
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a moron (as he should be).
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to include other corrupt officials, well...
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even uglier than it was.
Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel *******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing, China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak... the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
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First, welcome to The Forum. :china:
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club room.
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected with only one kind.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club room.
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected with only one kind.
kunmingren
Junior Member
i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria, and the Tarim Basin up to the Pamirs and the Talas River (Remarkably Korea stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang, ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily from Chinese culture.
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty. However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the Mamluks.
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty. However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the Mamluks.