China tests ASAT

This one is to SEA DOG:

I would like to hear your response to the following article by MSNBC



also posted by Les Adieux.

Excerpt: U.S. tracking systems have provided additional information about the trajectories of the spacecraft during the test, and of the orbital debris that resulted from the test, Oberg said.

"More thorough analysis no longer suggests that the target satellite might have maneuvered before the attack in order to line up with the interceptor," he said in an e-mail.

This seems to contradict your latest post.

Impact of the Chinese ASAT Test

It's the stunning show of the Chinese technology in remote positioning, tracking and precision targeting control capabilities. It's not the missile defense yet, which needs a lot more other complicated things put together, but it shows China has a darn good KV and all basic stuff which work extremely well. Russian never tried to use a KV, their approach is to attach a bomb to the sat to blow out another one - an obsolete technology from today's point of view.

So in today's space weapon technology, Russian is basically out of the loop - they don't have any new stuff to offer, and only two competators are left. Chinese made the call that Americans can't answer - they just want an explaination? But the bottom question is what else is in Chinese poket that they haven't shown? What happens if they apply this skill to the other aspect?

China just declared that their spacecraft will carry small sats - can we replace the name of "small sats" with KV? This is not a question even.



The balance of the power is tipped: US is trying to do expensive things - deploy expensive toys to destroy some hositile space objects - the missiles. And Chinese does cheap things - develop something to destroy these expensive toys. That puts the whole Star War theory in question today, is it sustainable in this fashion?

It's very interesting to watch the world reaction: France and Germany keep silent, and other little American friends in Europe as well, except Britain. The countries expressing "concerns" can be numbered with fingers. This is far from the "world fumed to the test", not even the "west". The silent majority of the world is probably the biggest problem for US - they are actually standing with Chinese, or at least don't want to get into this star war mess - that nobody knows how to end now.

alwaysfresh said:

This is my second post.

I know this forum is not suppost to be political so I will try to sound objective.

I am not a military expert but I think from the point of view of the military this is a good move for PLA. In the event where the mainland attempts to physically return Taiwan to China: All Taiwanese aided satellites over China should be destroyed. Fight the war to win.

I have no experience in military or policing, but I think that destroying satellites that are over China is logical, because I am honestly going to use movies to prove my point. (From SWAT movies) Just like in SWAT entries into buildings to capture individuals, they may sometimes cut power to try to gain psychological advanatage and control the environment of the individuals to be captured.

PLA having the ability to destroy satellites may also hinder Taiwanese military from purchasing satellite relying technology and investing in satellite technologies.

Again another advantage of the technology is that it may deter the Japanese and US militaries from entering a conflict where they may lose more than they are willing to risk.

I look forward to your comments...

Click to expand...

Your post was a bit overly political... but I'll take it, because I wanted to point out that the fact that the PLA has the ability to destroy the satellites probably won't stop Taiwan from continuing to use them, because the technology is too essential in present day, many GPS systems, cell phone companies, television broadcasts all rely on satellite. That doesn't mean that this ASAT technology will be ineffective in any way, it just means that Taiwan (and other nations which utilize satellites) will continue to do what they do.

I am wondering if we take a look from a legitimate point of view.

What is the International law in regards to space objects?

I found that American claim lacks any legal precedent, from my mundane point of view. If someone trying to knock off something that belongs to his own which is orbiting above his own teritory, legitimately it is undisputed.

If the object belongs to someone else but hovering above your own teritory the legitimacy is somehow disputed but the teritory owner should have better ground in eliminating "foreign object" placed above its teritory.

Anyway in a simple point of view launching a spy satelite in the first place should be considered belingerence and violation of a country sovereignity.

Sorry to go a bit off topic but I think it is vey relevant to this thread.

Anyway I guess any military action required a legal ground to be acted upon if not it should be treated as a "crime"

mickchew said:

This one is to SEA DOG:

I would like to hear your response to the following article by MSNBC

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

also posted by Les Adieux.

Excerpt: U.S. tracking systems have provided additional information about the trajectories of the spacecraft during the test, and of the orbital debris that resulted from the test, Oberg said.

"More thorough analysis no longer suggests that the target satellite might have maneuvered before the attack in order to line up with the interceptor," he said in an e-mail.

This seems to contradict your latest post.

Click to expand...

Doesn't say alot. The way the vehicle was aligned still suggests it was either in-plane or at the very least close to it. This article still doesn't contradict any of that. The only thing that is contradictory is that it was placed there before the test. It still says it closed from a position ahead, and slightly to the side of the satellite. That pretty much suggests in-plane. So they didn't move it beforehand. Big deal.

But The fact that this track seems to be LEO and aligned somewhat North to South nominally makes it more complicated than what I originally thought it to be though. I'll admit that. They launched in a Northerly direction which indicates they would have had to put their own vehicle ahead of the satellite on a closing course. Still not overly difficult, but at least more complicated than what they originally reported.

:coffee:
this is the news reported from chinese newspaper sing tao daily 22-1-2007 translate by google .com/translate
A chinese missile shot down their satellite event are not only a waste of space experts confirmed and attreced strong attention. Military experts believe that China this action may want to force the United States to start negotiations on the non-militarization of space. However, the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and China warned the United States : Do not start an arms race in space. Chairman of the Committee, Joseph Biden, the Democratic Party is to recognize China's tests "provocative", but he said, the United States has other ways to deal with the threat posed by China's missile tests. Biden said on the 21st, the United States does not need this "worry too much", and not to start an arms race in space. Biden pointed out that the United States has the necessary space to reconsider the Bush administration's policy on arms. He said that the United States needs to continue to insist on the use of the existing space armaments and weapons in space position discuss perspective. Last year, President Bush announced a new U.S. space policy. The policy said that Washington will "reserve the right to act in its space, and freedom." States will have to contain the United States can prevent or restrict the development and use of space capabilities. Analysts say that China's meteorological satellites operating in the United States running high about the same height, it China's test of the defense system of the United States constitute an indirect threat. Chinese Foreign Ministry denied the missile test was conducted, Chinese media have remained silent. International military experts in a heated debate, a lot of ordinary people in China to "missiles to shoot down satellites," the press knew nothing about. J-10 fighters to be strong and the recent widely reported the contrary, missile destroyed the satellite news media in China have been completely blocked. "China Daily" in English on their own websites after publication of this information will be deleted soon. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao earlier BBC interview, not confirmed China has not denied reports of a missile to destroy satellites. However, he said that China is devoted to peaceful utilization of outer space and opposes any arms race.

:coffee:

中评社21日电:汉和军事评论员平可夫评论中国这次以导弹击落气象卫星具有深远的军事和政治涵意及影响，而中国其中一个目的，肯定是要警告美国和日本不要介入台海局势。 　　 “汉和”杂志总编辑平可夫接受中央社记者电话访问时表示，从军事和政治角度看，这次事件的意义重大，包括： 　　 一、中国在发展太空武器方面已真正迈向更高境界，而且是从实战用途加以发展，并在实践上取得进展。 　　 二、这次事件绝对会刺激美国，因为美国一直把太空视为他们的后院，无人敢挑战；而既然中国已有真正的动作，美国未来可能会进一步研究太空战争的军事技术，而且主要针对中国─过去只针对前苏联。 　　 三、可能会促成美国、俄罗斯和中国坐下来谈判太空的发展。到目前为止，各大国间关于如何和平利用太空只停留在理念阶段，只有意愿，没有国际法的约束。 　　 这次事件固然可能导致大国间的太空军事竞赛，但也有可能促成大国间谈判把太空非军事化，最后签订条约。 　　 四、事件说明中国的军事杀手（金间）愈来愈多，使中国的军事实力提升到更高层次。目前，全球只有美国有这种实力，即使英国和法国都做不到；俄罗斯有这种技术和潜力，但没有钱。至于印度，未来可能做得到，但目前与中国差距仍大，两国的宇宙发展已进入“不同档次”。 　　 此外，平可夫认为，中国这次以导弹击落卫星，固然是中国朝着大国方向发展的必然趋势，但也有针对台海局势向美、日发出警示的味道。 　　 他说，作为大国，中国愈来愈注意“第六代战争”。所谓的“第六代战争”，是指未来的战争将从击毁敌人在外太空的卫星开始。 　　 再者，平可夫说：“连同上次高调宣传歼十战机，中国大有就台海局势向美、日警示的味道，告诉美、日他有更多的手段，希望藉此警告美日今年内不要介入台海局势。” 　　 他说：“我想，针对台海局势，他（中国）可能还会有更多的动作。” 　　 平可夫表示，中国的太空发展和美国还是有很大差距，但美国肯定会扩大利用这次事件。 　　但美国的真正反应，必须等待国防部的正式回应。 2007-01-19文章推荐 Social assessment : 21 Jul "Kanwah" military commentator PKF comment on the Chinese missiles to shoot down military and meteorological satellite has far-reaching political implications and impact One of the objectives of China, surely to warn the United States and Japan should not be involved in the situation in the Taiwan Strait. "KanWah" magazine editor-in-chief PKF talk with Central News Agency reporter on the phone, said he received from the military and political perspective, The significance of this incident, including : First, China was truly in the development of space weapons into a higher realm. from the real purpose is to be developed and made progress in practice. Second, this incident will definitely boost the United States because the United States has always regarded space as their backyard, nobody dares to challenge. Since China has the real action, the United States may in the future to further study the military technology of space war. China ─ mainly aimed at the former Soviet Union, only the past. Third, it could lead the United States, Russia and China to sit down and negotiate space development. So far, the major powers on how to stay only at the conceptual stage of the peaceful use of space, only wishes not bound by international law. While this incident may lead to a military space race between the great powers. However, it could also facilitate the demilitarization of space between the great powers negotiations, the final treaty. Fourth, the incident shows that China's military killer (companies) more and more, China's military strength to a higher level. Currently, only the United States has such a strong, even if Britain and France have failed; Russia and the potential of this technology, But no money. As for India, the future may be able to do it, but still the gap with China, the universe has entered a "different grades." In addition, PKF believes that China's recent missile to shoot down satellites While China is an inevitable trend towards the development of big powers, but can also be applied to the situation in the Taiwan Strait to the United States, Japan issued a warning to the flavor. He said that as big countries, China is growing attention to the "Sixth Generation war." The so-called "sixth generation" refers to the future war will destroy enemy satellites in space began. Furthermore, PKF said : " with the last J10 high-profile publicity, China much to US and Japan on the situation in the Taiwan Strait warns of flavor, China told the United States and Japan that he has more means hope this year warned that the United States and Japan should'nt be involved in the situation in the Taiwan Strait. He said :" I believe that the situation in the Taiwan Strait. He (China), there may be more action. PKF think China's space development, and the United States is still a big gap between the United States will expand the use of this incident. But the genuine reactions of the United States, must wait for a formal response from the national Ministry of Defense. The article recommended 2007-01-19

translated by google translate

Sea Dog said:

Doesn't say alot. The way the vehicle was aligned still suggests it was either in-plane or at the very least close to it. This article still doesn't contradict any of that. The only thing that is contradictory is that it was placed there before the test. It still says it closed from a position ahead, and slightly to the side of the satellite. That pretty much suggests in-plane. So they didn't move it beforehand. Big deal.

But The fact that this track seems to be LEO and aligned somewhat North to South nominally makes it more complicated than what I originally thought it to be though. I'll admit that. They launched in a Northerly direction which indicates they would have had to put their own vehicle ahead of the satellite on a closing course. Still not overly difficult, but at least more complicated than what they originally reported.

Click to expand...

Yup it is easy to do. Every dick and jane can do it Hmmm let me think who could possibly do it India,Pakistan,South Korea,Japan but wait they decide not to do it because it create too much debris and contrevene to UN convention on peacefull use of space

This one is to SEA DOG:

I apologise for not introducing myself. I guess that is a bit rude, I am a structural engineer now based in HK. I have always wanted to be an aeronautical/aerosomething engineer, but there isnt any demand for this skill in Australia. If I have been a bit curt or seem to have challenge you in my previous post, I again apologise because that is certainly not my intention.

You seem to know quite a bit about satellites and orbital motion. I am more interested in the technical aspects of this recent "satellite kill" than the seemingly threathening military aspects.

Is it fair to say then, that if you would want to kill a satellite, you would not want to attempt a out-of-plane (lets say for argument 90 degrees to the plane of orbit/travel i.e a tangent to it) kill because that yould be really silly due to the magnitude of the orbital/centrepetal velocity of the satellite and having to get your calculations spot on(for 2 objects to meet at the same position in 3 -D space travelling at great speed) if ever possible in real-life.

Hence an in-plane kill is the only way to go. Also head-on would be the way to go as i) it maximises the kinetic energy simply due to relative velocity and ii)firing it at the tail end i.e. chasing the satellite in-plae would also be silly due to the additional amout of speed the kill-vehicle would need if ever possible (I am no expert!!!) to "chase-down" the target satellite.

Which is exactly what the Chinese have done.

You stated that it is not a big deal or overly difficult. But that is my question (a genuine one). Unless the Russians or the Americans or anyone else for that matter have demonstrated that they also could do it the way it was recently done , empirical evidence if you like, your assertion (that is not overly difficult) is for now simply that. An assertion.


Regards,
Michael

Hendrik_2000 said:

Yup it is easy to do. Every dick and jane can do it Hmmm let me think who could possibly do it India,Pakistan,South Korea,Japan but wait they decide not to do it because it create too much debris and contrevene to UN convention on peacefull use of space

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Click to expand...

Yeah, let's hope this latest PLA test can put pressure on the US to finally agree to a comprehensive ban on weapons in space.