China seeks military base in pakistan
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solarz
Brigadier
Let's not be naive here. The relationship between China and Pakistan, like all international relations, is based on mutual interests. The "goodwill" of the "ordinary Pakistanis" exists as a contrast to the "bad will" against American influence.
Second, there can be a world of differences between what Islamabad says, what urban Pakistanis think, and what isolated tribes living in remote mountain regions think. It is those tribes that are supporting the ETIM on the Pakistan-Xinjiang border.
The problem with this idea is that it can take a very long time to mobilize local Pakistan forces, potentially rendering any intelligence gathered by the PLA worthless. Certainly, the PLA, in the eventuality of such an operation, would be wise to put on a veneer of "joint operation" with the Pakistani, but I think that if the Pakistani are incapable of rooting out the terror cells currently, we shouldn't expect them to do any heavy lifting in such operations either.
Americans strike at targets that they deem to be a threat. While their target can sometimes be beneficial to China as well, that will not always be the case.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
And you believe that the contrasting Chinese and American policies with regards to Pakistan plays no role in forming the respective "goodwill" and "bad will" the two enjoy?
Past Chinese dealings with Pakistan has consistently demonstrated that China does not make its decisions based purely on China's own interest, but rather what is best for both China and Pakistan. China has shown the flexibility to give up a little bit of its national interest if doing so would greatly enhance Pakistan's national interest. And Pakistan is reciprocating.
Granted that may be true, but is there any evidence whatsoever that Pakistanis living in the tribal areas are anti-China and actively supporting terrorists working against Chinese interests?
As you yourself pointed out, the Americans are not going to be doing the Chinese any favors by targeting anti-China terrorists, but a lot of anit-China terrorists are getting killed in American raids none the less. That would indicated that the anti-China elements are doing their best to mix in with the general jihadist population instead of setting up their own private little anti-China camps.
Now, given that America not only has no interest in actively targeting anti-China terrorists, but has in fact gone out of its way to help them in the past (look at all the trouble the US has gone to to help the Uighers training in terrorists camps in Afghanistan that were rounded up after the Americans went it).
Because of this, it would not be unreasonable to believe that if the anti-China lot set up their own 'anti-China only camps', the Americans drones will probably leave them the well alone. So the obvious question is, why don't they do that?
Pakistani forces might not take as long to respond to a Chinese request as they would to an American one.
Well our American friends seem to think the issue is more of a lack of will rather than a lack of firepower.
But I believe that Pakistani forces moving into a village to apprehend anti-China jihadists will not generate anywhere near the kind of hostility as the same Pakistani forces moving into the same village to apprehend anti-American jihadists.
Besides, if the entire Pakistani military is incapable of moving in to close down certain camps, just how many men and hardware do you suppose the PLA would need to send in to do a better job?
American drone strikes taking out anti-China terrorists means that these guys are embedded within the general jihadist population. That means that if a PLA strike force wants to take some of these guys out, chances are they will be assaulting a camp/base that houses a great many more jihadists who have absolutely zero interest in causing China any trouble.
However, if the PLA went in and took the lot of them out, suddenly all those other terror groups who previously had no problems with China now have a reason to hate China.
Given how these anti-China terrorists are just retarded amateurs in comparison to the sophistication of the terrorists targeting American and western forces in Afghanistan (again, I suspect because the vast majority of Pakistanis, including the Jihadists, have goodwill towards China and have been deliberately holding back support to these anti-China elements), it would really be a massive own goal for the PLA to take some of them out at the price of making China a target for all the other, infinitely more capable and dangerous groups out there.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
U have no idea what u are talking or any idea of Pakistan-US-China ties
Americans have proved they are just temporary friends, and its thier own fault, they gave us 40 F16s in 1980s then held our 71 F16s in 1990s for which Pakistan had already made the payment, we got wheat and flour as our refund!! we dont trust US one day they are friends next day enemys even India doesnt buy top end American equipped cus they know it will be closely followed by sanctions if any war breaks out
Pakistan has beemn pro-US ever since it rejected Soviet invitation in 1947 after its creation and instead travelled to Washington, and look where it has got us
China on the other hand has had relationship with muslims of this region since 5000 years silk route, after 1965 indo-pak war when US put on sanctions China gifted F6 as a gift to Pakistan to replace our American F86 Sabres, this model is in a museum in Lahore after this one Pakistan said throw US down the well lets be good friends with China, Turkey also did same for Pakistan and today in Turkish ciriculum at school childrens are still taught help of Pakistan
if u are going to help Pakistanis then we wont ever forget ur favours, but if u play a double game then remember its better to have us as friends then enemys
Pakistanis dont give a sh$t about what Americans think or say, we will not listen them, even Soviet Superpower knew that without Pakistans help they can never suceed in Afghanistan war and US knows this too, 10 years 1000s dead and trillions in spending and today Karazi cant eve go outside Kabul
have u been Pakistan? have many Pakistanis u know? i can tell you cus ive been Pakistan, Pakistani people respect those who respect us, if Chinese person is in a queue in airport Pakistani people will send him to the front, at desk he gets warm wellcome no checks straight through, outside everyone respects Chinese, there are over 5,000 Chinese engineers working on over 100 projects worth over $8 billion inside Pakistan, they are granted protection by Pakistans elite special forces the SSG Commando Unit, the same ones who defeated Spetnaz in Afghanistan during 1980s, just read about them
you have no understanding of how things work in Pakistan so thats why I explain all this to you maybe next time you will make a more sensible post if u do some research
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
here is a story of 2 Pakistanis who guarded a Chinese cemetray for 27 years and were invited to Beijing by Ministry of foreign affairs, 88 tombs of Chinese workers who died making the Karakorum Highway for Pakistan
Names and places in this article are translated from Chinese version and accuracy is not guaranteed.
Two ordinary Pakistanis have become famous in Pakistan.
For 27 years they companied the brave souls of 88 Chinese in the Chinese cemetery in Gilgit northern Pakistan. 2nd Aug, they arrived in Beijing at the invitation of China's ministry of foreign affairs. Before their departure for Beijing, they were accompanied by their relatives to Islamabad for a special program by Pakistan TV station. News reporter met them in Huafeng hotel Bejing 4th Aug.
Mr. Ali Madad 65 and Mr. Ali Ahamad 48 who never left the cemetery for 27 years looked most ordinary. For this interview, they put on their national costumes. Mr. Madad who has lost his hearing in one ear and can only speak Gilgit sat still during the interview. Mr. Ahamad can speak Urdu and a little English was responsible for answering all the questions.
The cemetery was devoted to Chinese who died in building the Kalakunlun highway. This highway is called China-Pakistan Friendship road and was built in accordance with agreement between the two nations. It runs through Pamir plateau, the roof of the world. It stretchs 1200 kilometers, the project was started in 1966 and finished 12 years later. Due to the difficult terrain and weather, frequent avalanche, landslide, mudslide, more than 100 Chinese engineers and workers devoted their lives their. Apart from few bodies which were sent back to China, most of them are sleeping on Pakistani soil.
1977, before the completion of construction Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad, who took part in buring the Chinese submited their applications to be volunteer guardians of the cemetery and their applications were quickly aproved. In Jul 1978, the cemetery was established on Pakistani soil, in the center, a white monument was erected on which engraved : "The graves of Chinese who devoted their lives in building the Pakistan highway". Mr. Ahamad told the news reporter that their homes are close to the cemetery, since then, they visit the cemetery almost every day and they never left it for 27 years.
Every tomb stone is circled by flowers
When talking about the cemetery, Mr. Ahamad got excited. He said that, except 88 tomb stones, there are more than 800 trees, every tomb stone is circled by flowers. All of this is done by him and Mr. Madad. Mr. Madad is in charge of the gate and cleaning, he is responsible for trees and flowers. Mr. Ahamad said proudly the many people think the work requires atleast 5 people but is done by them two.
They regard it as a supreme honur
Many people come here to commerate, including Chinese delegations, Chinese travelers and local Pakistanis.
Last year is the 25th anniversary of the opening of this road, Mr. Wang yi, the vice minister of China's foreing affairs visited the cemetery and the two gardians.
Ahamad told the reporter, Pakistanis know, some Chinese gave up their lives to build the road, and they are proud to attend to these brave men. When asked what is their wish, they said, they hope the tomb stone be repaired, for some of the names on the stones are difficult to recognize. Their duty is to keep the cemetery more clean and beautiful to give martyrs relatives consolation.
Ahamad said, they both receive 360 Rupee (about 50 Yuan) from the government, this is not salary, it is subsidy, they live on crops in their fields. When asked how long he will continue, Ahamad said, until I can't work, then I wish my son can take my place.
In 1997, when Hongkong returned to China, Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad were invited to Kashgar. This was their first time to bejing. When talking about his impression of Beijing, Ahamad said with exageration: Seeing Beijing is like seeing the stars in the sky, this city is monderful
Names and places in this article are translated from Chinese version and accuracy is not guaranteed.
Two ordinary Pakistanis have become famous in Pakistan.
For 27 years they companied the brave souls of 88 Chinese in the Chinese cemetery in Gilgit northern Pakistan. 2nd Aug, they arrived in Beijing at the invitation of China's ministry of foreign affairs. Before their departure for Beijing, they were accompanied by their relatives to Islamabad for a special program by Pakistan TV station. News reporter met them in Huafeng hotel Bejing 4th Aug.
Mr. Ali Madad 65 and Mr. Ali Ahamad 48 who never left the cemetery for 27 years looked most ordinary. For this interview, they put on their national costumes. Mr. Madad who has lost his hearing in one ear and can only speak Gilgit sat still during the interview. Mr. Ahamad can speak Urdu and a little English was responsible for answering all the questions.
The cemetery was devoted to Chinese who died in building the Kalakunlun highway. This highway is called China-Pakistan Friendship road and was built in accordance with agreement between the two nations. It runs through Pamir plateau, the roof of the world. It stretchs 1200 kilometers, the project was started in 1966 and finished 12 years later. Due to the difficult terrain and weather, frequent avalanche, landslide, mudslide, more than 100 Chinese engineers and workers devoted their lives their. Apart from few bodies which were sent back to China, most of them are sleeping on Pakistani soil.
1977, before the completion of construction Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad, who took part in buring the Chinese submited their applications to be volunteer guardians of the cemetery and their applications were quickly aproved. In Jul 1978, the cemetery was established on Pakistani soil, in the center, a white monument was erected on which engraved : "The graves of Chinese who devoted their lives in building the Pakistan highway". Mr. Ahamad told the news reporter that their homes are close to the cemetery, since then, they visit the cemetery almost every day and they never left it for 27 years.
Every tomb stone is circled by flowers
When talking about the cemetery, Mr. Ahamad got excited. He said that, except 88 tomb stones, there are more than 800 trees, every tomb stone is circled by flowers. All of this is done by him and Mr. Madad. Mr. Madad is in charge of the gate and cleaning, he is responsible for trees and flowers. Mr. Ahamad said proudly the many people think the work requires atleast 5 people but is done by them two.
They regard it as a supreme honur
Many people come here to commerate, including Chinese delegations, Chinese travelers and local Pakistanis.
Last year is the 25th anniversary of the opening of this road, Mr. Wang yi, the vice minister of China's foreing affairs visited the cemetery and the two gardians.
Ahamad told the reporter, Pakistanis know, some Chinese gave up their lives to build the road, and they are proud to attend to these brave men. When asked what is their wish, they said, they hope the tomb stone be repaired, for some of the names on the stones are difficult to recognize. Their duty is to keep the cemetery more clean and beautiful to give martyrs relatives consolation.
Ahamad said, they both receive 360 Rupee (about 50 Yuan) from the government, this is not salary, it is subsidy, they live on crops in their fields. When asked how long he will continue, Ahamad said, until I can't work, then I wish my son can take my place.
In 1997, when Hongkong returned to China, Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad were invited to Kashgar. This was their first time to bejing. When talking about his impression of Beijing, Ahamad said with exageration: Seeing Beijing is like seeing the stars in the sky, this city is monderful
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
it is evidently clear that this problem has NO MILITRAY solution, otherwise US would have won this war by now with all its new fancy toys and equipment
rather than concentrating on fighting the war had the US used that money to bring education, infrastructure, health care, schools, etc etc to Afghanistan they would have suceeded, those people never accept outside country in thier own fighting them, never since Alexander the Great, Ghanghis Khan or the British Empire, US was hell bent on revenge and revenge only for 9/11
first Pakistan will tell Chinese never to make base in Pakistan, because it will only lead to more attacks on China, second if China wants help in controlling border to stop any bad guys then Pakistan can make a base near the border to control who comes in and out with close collaboration with Chinese counter parts
solarz
Brigadier
I have to disagree with the idea that there is a "anti-America" camp and a "anti-Chinese" camp among the terrorists based in Pakistan. They all come from the same radical Islamist network. The reason China can benefit from American strikes against these cell leaders is because the same people (or group of people) are ordering attacks on both Chinese and American interests.
As it is, I don't think there's much doubt that the ETIM operates in Pakistan with local support, likely from ethnic Uighur groups.
I also disagree with your assessment that ETIM attacks are "amateurish" compared to, say, Al-Qaeda. Post-9/11, there has been no successful attacks by Al-Qaeda affiliated terrorists on American soil. Compare that to several attacks carried out by the ETIM, all of which resulted in casualties for the Chinese. The most severe of these attacks is the Urumqi riot of 2009. That attack alone should have warranted a full military mobilization.
solarz
Brigadier
Actually, there is. The Hashashiyyin once struck terror into the hearts of far-away European Kings, until the Mongols crushed them and broke their power once and for all.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
In that case, why did the Americans decide to release the Uighers they rounded up in training camps in Afghanistan? They were only released because it was established that they were not a threat to American interests, not because they were not terrorists.
I also think it is unwise to brand all muslim terror groups with the same brush. They might share a very similar ideology, but they have vastly different motivations and interests.
Some terrorists would only be interested in hitting American/NATO targets, while others only want to kill Russians, and others still just want to kill Chinese. These people might sometimes work together or help each other out, but they will only be doing so to further their own interests, and will not sacrifice their own cause and beliefs to help out a 'brother' from another movement.
Well, it is clear that if they are getting local support, it is of a completely different nature to what the anti-American groups are getting.
It is unfair to compare China to America because of simple geography. It is about as easy for these people to get into China as it is for them to get into Afghanistan, but far more difficult to get to CONUS. Look at the kind of weapons and co-ordination used in Afghanistan compared to China.
So either Chinese boarder security is freaking amazing and nothing is getting through, or the anti-China lot are not getting any of the shinny toys from the locals. The few incidents where firearms have been smuggled into XinJiang, we only hear of it because of successful PAP raids before these weapons could be used.
In all the years that the ETIM have been operating, I do not remember a single case where firearms or military grade explosives have been used.
This with the PAP raids makes me suspect that when these anti-Chinese groups does get their hands on some serious hardware, somebody has always tipped the Chinese off, and so the PAP were there waiting to greet them when they arrived in China every time.
I think you are underestimating just how valuable the genuine goodwill of Pakistanis towards China is to China's national security. Loyalty like that is not something money can ever buy, just ask the Americans.
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