China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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Albania

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
Long time lurker here. And no, I'm not another alt of 6ix 9ine or whatever lol. I have an interest in geopolitics (am a realist btw) so I'll give my my two cents (got introduced to this forum through r/geopolitics).

I feel that the Chinese leadership have lost touch with a lot of the "hide your strength and bide your time" philosophy from the Deng era. I think the doctrine was done to the point where it was genuinely spineless - but it was effective and smart. Think back to when the US bombed the Chinese Embassy and then killed a Chinese pilot over Hainan and Chinese diplomats did nothing. China had every right to retaliate and seek justice, but they didn't and they did the smart thing and laid low. Imagine if they had done what many Chinese wanted and retaliated. I think China would have caught the ire of the Americans and would have never been invited to the WTO subsequently which allowed for China's tremendous growth and developed into a power that now rivals the US. China bided her time and now because of that, she wields immense strength albeit still second to the US.

This same problem is at the heart of the plethora of disputes between China and a lot of other countries around her. First off, I do believe that negotiating or even ceding territory and claims is simply a non starter given China's immense strength right now. However, I believe it is far more prudent to maintain the claims but do not press hard on them right now. People some times forget that China is getting stronger at an incredible rate. China has the patience to wait. China's hand will only get stronger and it can afford to stall. The main rival is the US. Once the US gets eclipsed, her allies will fall in line to China. China should not get distracted in fights against weaker countries and lose sight of her real enemy. Picking diplomatic spats against neutral countries like Sweden or France through 'Wolf Warrior' diplomacy is counterintuitive even if the criticism of those countries is well justified. A lot of countries have seen their opinions of China deteriorate because of unnecessary Chinese actions. Diplomacy is to progress Chinese interests, not Chinese sentiments.

Finally, I do not believe in democracy or the intelligence of the average person to know what is best for the country. This same principle applies for China. I believe that the Chinese people greatly approve of recent strategies to be far more aggressive and to press their rightful claims and to fight back against diplomatic insults. However, the recent actions by diplomats have run exactly counter to Chinese desires. We're bogged down in spats against insignificant countries that pushes them further onto the lap of the true rival, the United States. Many in China still see outer Manchuria and Outer Mongolia as rightful Chinese clay but such claims were run exactly counter to Chinese interests. Maybe some day, these territories will see their return, but for now, China must act smart.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Long time lurker here. And no, I'm not another alt of 6ix 9ine or whatever lol. I have an interest in geopolitics (am a realist btw) so I'll give my my two cents (got introduced to this forum through r/geopolitics).
No problem, I can debate with you in good faith.
A lot of countries have seen their opinions of China deteriorate because of unnecessary Chinese actions.
I seem to see lots of countries elevate their opinions of China because of its competency over COVID. Could you point out some examples of these "unnecessary" actions (assuming that unnecessary means that they do not serve Chinese interests while they do inflame relations)?
Finally, I do not believe in democracy or the intelligence of the average person to know what is best for the country.
That is true and I agree but we're all debating for fun here over things we can't control. If we bring that element in, then it would apply to everyone's views including yours. And the underlying assumption or extension in that statement is that we commoners don't know the full picture with all the classified information so we should trust the decision of those who do instead of criticizing them from our incomplete view, right?
I believe that the Chinese people greatly approve of recent strategies to be far more aggressive and to press their rightful claims and to fight back against diplomatic insults. However, the recent actions by diplomats have run exactly counter to Chinese desires.
Morale is not to be underestimated; a government that has the support of its people is far more effective than one that the people see as weak and unwilling to defend national interests/pride. This is a form of spiritual support that is highly desirable.
We're bogged down in spats against insignificant countries that pushes them further onto the lap of the true rival, the United States.
These "spats" are often fruitful in expanding Chinese territory that can be used for claims over natural resources or naval bases/surveillance of naval activity in the area.

And do they push countries onto the lap of the US? The Philippines under pro-US Aquino lost territory to China every week, but once Duterte called the US useless and guided the Philippines on a China-friendly path, China took no more territory. This shows all Asian nations that in Asia, friendship with China gets things done, not reliance on America. It's necessary for all of them to realize this and to realize that you cannot use America to go above China in Asia. On the other hand, if China were to relent now, to some countries while they are hostile, the effect would be the opposite, showing others that in Asia, pushing back against China with the US reinforcing you is a winning strategy.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Long time lurker here. And no, I'm not another alt of 6ix 9ine or whatever lol. I have an interest in geopolitics (am a realist btw) so I'll give my my two cents (got introduced to this forum through r/geopolitics).

I feel that the Chinese leadership have lost touch with a lot of the "hide your strength and bide your time" philosophy from the Deng era. I think the doctrine was done to the point where it was genuinely spineless - but it was effective and smart. Think back to when the US bombed the Chinese Embassy and then killed a Chinese pilot over Hainan and Chinese diplomats did nothing. China had every right to retaliate and seek justice, but they didn't and they did the smart thing and laid low. Imagine if they had done what many Chinese wanted and retaliated. I think China would have caught the ire of the Americans and would have never been invited to the WTO subsequently which allowed for China's tremendous growth and developed into a power that now rivals the US. China bided her time and now because of that, she wields immense strength albeit still second to the US.

This same problem is at the heart of the plethora of disputes between China and a lot of other countries around her. First off, I do believe that negotiating or even ceding territory and claims is simply a non starter given China's immense strength right now. However, I believe it is far more prudent to maintain the claims but do not press hard on them right now. People some times forget that China is getting stronger at an incredible rate. China has the patience to wait. China's hand will only get stronger and it can afford to stall. The main rival is the US. Once the US gets eclipsed, her allies will fall in line to China. China should not get distracted in fights against weaker countries and lose sight of her real enemy. Picking diplomatic spats against neutral countries like Sweden or France through 'Wolf Warrior' diplomacy is counterintuitive even if the criticism of those countries is well justified. A lot of countries have seen their opinions of China deteriorate because of unnecessary Chinese actions. Diplomacy is to progress Chinese interests, not Chinese sentiments.

Finally, I do not believe in democracy or the intelligence of the average person to know what is best for the country. This same principle applies for China. I believe that the Chinese people greatly approve of recent strategies to be far more aggressive and to press their rightful claims and to fight back against diplomatic insults. However, the recent actions by diplomats have run exactly counter to Chinese desires. We're bogged down in spats against insignificant countries that pushes them further onto the lap of the true rival, the United States. Many in China still see outer Manchuria and Outer Mongolia as rightful Chinese clay but such claims were run exactly counter to Chinese interests. Maybe some day, these territories will see their return, but for now, China must act smart.

Hi ALBANIA

GOOD DAY

YUP I agree with you, China low key is still the best approach, CHINA need TIME, It's still a decade away to able to achieve its COMPREHENSIVE NATIONAL POWER.

My worry is the next generation, they grew in a prosperous china and are spoiled, these emperor or empress had not experience hardship in their life. That's why I welcome this coming competition with the west, it gives the incentive for these youngster the opportunity to show their worth. It's a SPUTNIK MOMENT for all chinese, it will definitely awaken the national spirit, hope the youth will be able handle that.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
China and the US, who needs time at the moment?

the anwser seems obivous for most, but when you think of it for a while, you may have a different anwser.

a war is a physical fight, what matters is material. the US beat Germany and japan by bombed them into oblivion. at the moment it's China actually holding the advantage. fight early, fight big may not be a bad thing after all!
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
No problem, I can debate with you in good faith.

I seem to see lots of countries elevate their opinions of China because of its competency over COVID. Could you point out some examples of these "unnecessary" actions (assuming that unnecessary means that they do not serve Chinese interests while they do inflame relations)?

That is true and I agree but we're all debating for fun here over things we can't control. If we bring that element in, then it would apply to everyone's views including yours. And the underlying assumption or extension in that statement is that we commoners don't know the full picture with all the classified information so we should trust the decision of those who do instead of criticizing them from our incomplete view, right?

Morale is not to be underestimated; a government that has the support of its people is far more effective than one that the people see as weak and unwilling to defend national interests/pride. This is a form of spiritual support that is highly desirable.

These "spats" are often fruitful in expanding Chinese territory that can be used for claims over natural resources or naval bases/surveillance of naval activity in the area.

And do they push countries onto the lap of the US? The Philippines under pro-US Aquino lost territory to China every week, but once Duterte called the US useless and guided the Philippines on a China-friendly path, China took no more territory. This shows all Asian nations that in Asia, friendship with China gets things done, not reliance on America. It's necessary for all of them to realize this and to realize that you cannot use America to go above China in Asia. On the other hand, if China were to relent now, to some countries while they are hostile, the effect would be the opposite, showing others that in Asia, pushing back against China with the US reinforcing you is a winning strategy.

Hi manqiangrexue

Regarding the PHILLIPINE, our country is dictated by FAMILY PATRONAGE POLITICS. POLITICAL FAMILY jostle for power and influence using money, goons and guns. Our system of governance is copied exactly like the US. SO its corrupt to the core.

We are CURSE with the MARCOS and AQUINO FAMILY fighting for the last 46 years, Our economy is run by CRONIES by either family.
Marcos is a dictator but he is a NATIONALIST, he is able to develop our industries during the 70's, BENIGNO AQUINO is a AMERICAN puppet IS being groom to replace Marcos. SO that's how the 1986 EDSA REVOLUTION HAPPEN. The AMERICAN step in to install their anointed one CORY AQUINO (husband had been kill that trigger the event), during her reign she oversaw the selling of our national resources and industries to foreigner and cronies under the auspices of IMF and WORLDBANK, THAT'S HOW THE AMERICAN tighten the grip on us, Its very subtle and effective.

DUTERTE is able to end this curse by letting Marcos buried in the NATIONAL HERO CEMENTERY, it's an audacious move cause it make a lot of CRITICISM and extreme pressure from our press and also from western media. By doing this it OPEN A NEW CHAPTER in our nation history and moved on, its also diminish the role of US and its NGO. From there DUTERTE is able to implement his own vision of a independent economic and foreign policy.

What China must do is help DUTERTE achieve his vision by supporting his economic policy and infrastructure, right now China is hedging, cause DUTERTE have only 2 years left and their is a strong US lobby and support. China should go all out and maybe this pandemic with a VACCINE may help. In this DUTERTE may gain more power and support to ANOINT his OWN successor that will continue his policy.
 

solarz

Brigadier
We're bogged down in spats against insignificant countries that pushes them further onto the lap of the true rival, the United States.

What are these spats that China is bogged down in? What does "bogged down" even mean to you?

Australia tried to jump on the blame China wagon with the US. China switched from buying Australian barley to American barley, and the Australians collectively facepalmed.

A few years ago, Philippines tried to play hardball with China. They won a meaningless "judgement" from the Pseudo Court of Arbitration, and lost an entire shoal after sending in their biggest warship against two unarmed Chinese maritime enforcement vessels. After that, Duterte came in, kicked out the Americans, and rolled out the red carpet for China. Is this what you mean by "bogged down"?

Let's go back a bit further. Remember that whole spat with Japan over Diaoyu Islands? Well, turns out Japan is perfectly willing to mend relations with China after it became apparent Trump was ready to kick them to the curb.

Seriously, what do you mean by "bogged down"?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
China is the 2nd most powerful country in the world without being liked. Americans think the world disrespects them. Being liked is overrated. The countries that are liked means people don't see them as a threat to their place in the world. Do we see Japan and South Korea blissfully in love with each other? Japan hates South Korea because South Korea has surpassed them in many aspects. Pretty much through the 80s Western countries portrayed Japan as a bigger threat than the Soviet Union because of how well their economy was doing. Do you think the Western countries that are afraid of China because they violate humans rights? Human rights is an excuse to cover-up fearing China is going displace them. The 2008 Western Financial Crisis exposed Western countries are spending more money that they can make. Meaning if China knocks off the US, the world will no longer be shaped to favor Western countries first. They're going to have a harder time maintaining the standard of living they're use to. People don't hate China because China has been a bad citizen of the world. They hate China because they'll have to start all over sucking up to China if they want something like they did with the US. The ones more invested with the old ways are going to have the hardest time. The US made sure they were dependent so they will always be loyal.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
China and the US, who needs time at the moment?

the anwser seems obivous for most, but when you think of it for a while, you may have a different anwser.

a war is a physical fight, what matters is material. the US beat Germany and japan by bombed them into oblivion. at the moment it's China actually holding the advantage. fight early, fight big may not be a bad thing after all!

I'm somewhat confused by your statement.

In the long-run, we could see China grow to become twice the size of the USA in economic terms by 2030-2035.

At that point, would China make a decision to significantly outspend the US military, and change the military balance?

I don't think there is any issue with saying this publicly now, because relations with the US are almost completely broken and the USA is actively trying to contain China.

So best to broadcast to everyone that you really want to stay neutral and not follow the US, as this is a losing proposition.

Plus there isn't anything the USA can do to change China's trajectory, as future Chinese development is now dependent on her own decisions.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
What are these spats that China is bogged down in? What does "bogged down" even mean to you?

Australia tried to jump on the blame China wagon with the US. China switched from buying Australian barley to American barley, and the Australians collectively facepalmed.

A few years ago, Philippines tried to play hardball with China. They won a meaningless "judgement" from the Pseudo Court of Arbitration, and lost an entire shoal after sending in their biggest warship against two unarmed Chinese maritime enforcement vessels. After that, Duterte came in, kicked out the Americans, and rolled out the red carpet for China. Is this what you mean by "bogged down"?

Let's go back a bit further. Remember that whole spat with Japan over Diaoyu Islands? Well, turns out Japan is perfectly willing to mend relations with China after it became apparent Trump was ready to kick them to the curb.

Seriously, what do you mean by "bogged down"?
HI Solarz

Good analogy with a caveat, The AMERICAN are REALLY CONFUSE on what to do with China, ITS a huge market at the same time a FUTURE RIVAL. These CONFUSION endangered its allies in China retaliation individually piecemeal by piecemeal .They really need a new/fresh strategy, they need to study SUN TZU !!!.

Right now there is NO major CHINA INSTITUTE think tank , IF there is are mostly CHINA HAWK. The most ideal strategy for the US right now is to co-opt CHINA, in these way it had the market and able to maintain power and influence , a win-win strategy.

TRUMP , THE GOP AND US ESTABLISHMENT had really drop the ball, the ARROGANCE of power and entitlement is to plain to see that it clouded their judgement and strategic decision. They will be blame in the future ON HOW WE LOST CHINA II .
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
HI Solarz

Good analogy with a caveat, The AMERICAN are REALLY CONFUSE on what to do with China, ITS a huge market at the same time a FUTURE RIVAL. These CONFUSION endangered its allies in China retaliation individually piecemeal by piecemeal .They really need a new/fresh strategy, they need to study SUN TZU !!!.

Right now there is NO major CHINA INSTITUTE think tank , IF there is are mostly CHINA HAWK. The most ideal strategy for the US right now is to co-opt CHINA, in these way it had the market and able to maintain power and influence , a win-win strategy.

TRUMP , THE GOP AND US ESTABLISHMENT had really drop the ball, the ARROGANCE of power and entitlement is to plain to see that it clouded their judgement and strategic decision. They will be blame in the future ON HOW WE LOST CHINA II .

I'd say that the US has no viable long-term strategy to stop China from growing far larger and influential than the USA.

And that is fundamentally at odds with the ideology of American Exceptionalism.
 
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