China Navy Power

Violet Oboe said:

@Jiang: I agree with you completely about the fact that it is very important that China continues to build a strong navy since her global interests have to be protected vigorously in the coming years; but unfourtunately your assumptions about a number of China´s neighbours are certainly misguided!

Only the US and their steadfast ´Sancho Pansa´Japan can be designated as potential adversaries and India will tread very careful since her economic interests (China is India´s second most important trade partner) will suffer dearly if India unduly provokes China.

The ROK and Singapore have been turned by China´s succesfull diplomacy and economic weight by more than 90 degrees and both countries elites are absolutely aware about the fact that China is their biggest trade and investment partner. Some years into the future (the elder Lee Kuan Yew (Singapores somewhat sinophobic foundingfather) will probably be gone by then and the process of korean unification will eventually be under way) these countries will be turned by 180 degrees in their strategic orientation.

Vietnam is indeed a peculiar case since ordinary viets harbour deep resentments against the chinese people but the CPV wants to solidify their grip on power and has decided after some wavering that only cooperation with China holds the key for prosperity and stability in the indochinese region (look at who holds the big stakes in Cambodia and Laos already!).

After all China´s soft AND hard power position in her East and South East Asian neighbourhood has improved markedly in recent years and China should avoid irritating new friends by holding on to old prejudices.

@dear Jiang: Best regards Violet Oboe

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Well dear friend, you have a point. However, we still have to watch out. Remember what happen in our past 100 years of history.

Our people wer being mascared, our kingdom was being destoried by Japan, UK, France, Germany and the list goes on. I am not trying to be hurtful. But it is a fact. We must remember that only a strong force can save us, and protect our children and future. Even though we are the most important trading partner in Asia, but there are still many hate toward us and want hurt us.

Violet Oboe said:

@Jiang: I agree with you completely about the fact that it is very important that China continues to build a strong navy since her global interests have to be protected vigorously in the coming years; but unfourtunately your assumptions about a number of China´s neighbours are certainly misguided!

Only the US and their steadfast ally Japan can be designated as potential adversaries and India will tread very careful since her economic interests (China is India´s second most important trade partner) will suffer dearly if India unduly provokes China.

The ROK and Singapore have been turned by China´s succesfull diplomacy and economic weight by more than 90 degrees and both countries elites are absolutely aware about the fact that China is their biggest trade and investment partner. Some years into the future (the elder Lee Kuan Yew (Singapores somewhat sinophobic foundingfather) will probably be gone by then and the process of korean unification will eventually be under way) these countries will be turned by 180 degrees in their strategic orientation.

Vietnam is indeed a peculiar case since ordinary viets harbour deep resentments against the chinese people but the CPV wants to solidify their grip on power and has decided after some wavering that only cooperation with China holds the key for prosperity and stability in the indochinese region (look at who holds the big stakes in Cambodia and Laos already!).

After all China´s soft AND hard power position in her East and South East Asian neighbourhood has improved markedly in recent years and China should avoid irritating new friends by holding on to old prejudices.

@dear Jiang: Best regards Violet Oboe

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Protecting the sea route is useless if u cannot protect the country that is supplying the natural resources.

China has display oustanding diplomacy in using soft power(Finance and Trade) to win over many allies and friends. But must have a secondary plan if all this fail. Which is to have a decisive military forces to ensure the prosperity of China growth.

Imagine,Bush US forces invasion of Iraq in 2003 is a massive success. Dictatorship transform into democracy quickly without much problem. Iraq becomes a classic example of the so-called 'Liberation' by US from tyrants. Bush and US will use this example as an excuse to carry on more invasion of hostile state yet with strategic value countries and change them into a pro US state. Europe and whole America citizen will support US ideology really thinking US is the saviour of the world from tyrant!

If that happen,what is China going to do to protect its strategic partner like Iran and Sudan who are thousands km away from a China who is without a powerful navy that is capable of projecting power far away from home soil.

Very fortunate,Bush makes a mess of Iraq and nobody is going to buy his bull that Iraq is a classic example of liberating countries. That is the reason why Iran is still very safe from any US attack and invasion at the moment. But China shall not be contend and shall try make full use of its 1 trillion reserve to build a strong navy. Plus investing in defence will most like regenerate the money back to its home soil since China can afford to build many military inventory by itself *******! It is a good way to spread around the wealth within the country.

Many Middle East countries hate US but unable to break free from US clutches because of the powerful US navy and its air wing! Despite rising China finance status,lacking of a credible China powerful navy prevents many Middle east countries of completely siding with China and thus deminishing some of its influence. All this will be change if China possess a powerful navy. It needs not to have the same size of US navy and a half a size of with with 4 CVN will be enough to boast confident of this middle east countries to break free from US control and deny US military presence into their homeland!

Thus rewriting the world history and continuing ensure the growth and rising of the Great CHina! :china:

You fellows seem to be very intelligent. So I implore you to discuss Chinese navy power and not the Iraq war or opinions about US foriegn policy. In addition the use of any immflamatory launguage & country bashing remarks is prohibited.Use your words in the most respectful manner possible.

bd popeye super moderator

bd popeye said:

You fellows seem to be very intelligent. So I implore you to discuss Chinese navy power and not the Iraq war or opinions about US foriegn policy. In addition the use of any immflamatory launguage & country bashing remarks is prohibited.Use your words in the most respectful manner possible.

bd popeye super moderator

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Why can't we link Iraq invasion with rise of China navy....

The Iraq invasion without UN approval makes China realise US can act like a unresponsible power,invading any weak countries it like. It make China more determine to build a powerful blue navy that is capable of countering USN. Protecting more countries from the threat of US invasion.

@bd popeye:
Ok, Ok my little quotation of classic european literature regarding Japan´s foreign policy was off the mark but next time I will probably substitute Miguel de Cervantes for Mori Ōgai (森 鴎外) and this will hopefully remove any suspicion about bashing our japanese friends!

@kilo636:
Some of your arguments regarding insufficient chinese naval power are certainly valid and I agree with you that a number of weaknesses have to be fixed quickly (a crisis about taiwan can erupt anytime soon!) but chinese strategists remember that the mighty Soviet naval fleet collapsed a few years after a several decades long gargantuan effort of achieving strategic parity with the US Navy since the creaking economy of the USSR was simply not able to underwrite the bills anymore.

Of course China´s economy today is far stronger than that of the USSR even during her peak strength (late 70´s in comparison to US) but although Chinas´s financial resources are formidable they are also eventually limited. There can be no doubt that behind the scenes rages a bitter fight between Navy, Air Force, Army and Second Artillery for the biggest chunks of the funding cake and apparently PLAN has lost some of these struggles particularly against the air force and missile guys.

One lesson about the tragically heroic story of the soviet morskaya flota although is certainly very encouraging for China´s naval officers: may be it will take decades and an effort to move mountains but the US Navy can be successfully challenged and strategic parity can be achieved. Unfourtunately that lesson is also thaught to US Navy officers in Annapolis and as a result these guys are certainly determined to prevent any potential rival during the 21st century of getting that close to their capabilities like the Soviet fleet succeeded in the 1970-80´s.

Chinese naval officers know the works and the life of Admiral Sergey Gorshkov the man who created the Soviet high seas fleet between 1956-86 (he died fourtunately in 1989 not living to see the disgrace) fully well and obviously they are determined not to repeat his mistakes. China is in need of a strategy different from the old ways of the Cold War since China is simply different in strenghts and weaknesses from the former USSR and the USA is also more powerful today than 20 or 50 years ago but a strong and globally deployable navy is one of the instruments of power China will have to acquire for securing her integral interests. The coming years will show whether a new great game has just begun or the prologue is simply deferred for another decade but looking at ´surprises´like the recent ASAT test my personal opinion is that we should better watching out for some additional ´surprises´to come!

Kilo 636 sez;

Why can't we link Iraq invasion with rise of China navy....

The Iraq invasion without UN approval makes China realise US can act like a unresponsible power,invading any weak countries it like. It make China more determine to build a powerful blue navy that is capable of countering USN. Protecting more countries from the threat of US invasion.

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I do not want the thread to end up in country bashing remarks such as you just posted. And I'm a super moderator. I want to maintain the decorum in our discussions.

There is a better way to state what you just posted. such as this.

The US led Iraq invasion without UN approval made China realize the US will take military action against precieved enemies. This action has made China more determined to build a Blue water navy so it may protect itself and neighbors.

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Now isn't that a bit more respectful than what you posted?

Once again please continue the discussion in a respectful manner.

Obviously the Chinese need to have a powerful navy and I have stated so and provided reasons why earlier in this thread. However, China must not forget that it is at a disadvantage in a military sense to prospective rivals (India, US, Japan) on the water. They are at an advatage "on land" when it comes to strategic relationships with Pakistan, Myanmar, Iran and the Central Asian nations. Therefore if China needs to secure a route to energy and to the Indian Ocean it should look inland, developing closer ties to the above mentioned nations and position itself as a leader of the said community. Again this is another reason for a base in Pakistan because that relationship must be maintained.

Basically what I'm saying here is that the Chinese need to have a "sphere of influence" in Central Asia to protect their access to allies, markets and energy, and a powerful military is needed to maintain that sphere of influence. A navy is part of that but not all of it.

China is right now going to build a Navy that first protects itself from foreign invadors and then will secondly build up a Navy for use in a possible conflict to united foreign controlled terriory (taiwan, Islands off Taiwan).

Chinese Navy will be used only outside of China for UN missions. China will not sacrifice the lives of its people to save a foreign government under attack unless China's unity is at risk. China will only use diplomatic means to protect foreign interest, it is China's policy to not get involved militarily with foreign governments unless China's unity is at risk.

<QUOTE> Finn McCool stated "powerful military is needed to maintain that sphere of influence".</QUOTE> I disagree, this is only if your policy is to use military means to implement influence and that is not China's foreign policy that is the US's foreign policy. Assuming that all governments use the same foreign policy is ignoring reality.

Are you really a Chinese? You could be a Chinese-hater by impersonating as Chinese and embarassing others. If you are not interested in the PLA, then don't come to this website.

The United States is not that bad. Although it mislead its people just to go to war in Iraq, the country is still highly respected in the world, with many looking up to it as a model for an industrialized nation though with a little jealousy.

alwaysfresh said:

<QUOTE> Finn McCool stated "powerful military is needed to maintain that sphere of influence".</QUOTE> I disagree, this is only if your policy is to use military means to implement influence and that is not China's foreign policy that is the US's foreign policy. Assuming that all governments use the same foreign policy is ignoring reality.

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No. The US's foreign policy is different in the respect that it seeks world hegemony. Thus the US not only seeks to have a sphere of influence, it wants its fingers in all spheres of influence. That is why the USN has 12 aircraft carriers and more LHAs. China does not need that, or want it. That is why China only needs two aircraft carriers.