China Geopolitical News Thread

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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I love how the British get to decide if China or Great Britain lived up to their promises. Just like the British thought they had the only right to decide who was the governor of Hong Kong out 156 years of occupation. I think we already know what the findings are going to be. What happens next? The British get to reclaim Hong Kong? Maybe Western countries will get to vote on it to make it ethical.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I believe you wrote in good faith and is not some drive by comments and I will reciprocate by being truthful and respectful. Firstly I don't care about what others think of Chinese whether real or imaginary because we see the world not as it is but how we see it. That means stop seeing yourself as a victim and step out of the shadows of the past. On this thread and on the subject of HK, I have tried to stay on topic concerning current political events and the immediate issues associated with it. All the rest of the stuff that you mentioned was not even mentioned or discussed. The problem I see is that whenever any discussion on China crops up the historical baggage and the victim mentality immediately surfaced whether it has anything to do with the subject matter.

Btw, I am of Chinese ethnicity and my grandparents were from Guangdong province. I can speak Cantonese fluently.

Player 99 is a very kind and respectful gentleman Brumby, he is very honest as well, and someone I respect very greatly, so good call, and he always operates in good faith, and Brumby, thank you so much for your candor and honesty, I greatly appreciate your honest assessment. I absolute concur that always playing the victim is very harmful to a persons self esteem, and takes away from those who are truly victims and need our help and compassion...
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said America supports the Hong Kong democracy movement.

Maybe I'm getting jaded in my old age, but has any democracy the US supported in the last few decades turned out well for the countries in question? Just off the top of my head, I count 9 disasters, and I'm probably missing many more.

Russia..... didn't end well
Ukraine.... exploding before our very eyes
Thailand.... the military is back in charge
Burma.... hasn't been good; currently on a knife edge, could go either way
Afghanistan.... Karzai is one of the most corrupt leaders in Central Asia, and the country is democratic in name only
Egypt.... the people elected an Islamist government, and US is OK with the military stepping in to boot out the democratically elected leader
Palestine.... what a royal mess
Libya.... common denominator between Khadafi and Libyan democracy is they're both dead
Iraq.... gone to hell in a hand basket
Kurdistan... surprise, surprise, it turned out well for the Kurds

And now, the US wants to push democracy onto China, way, way, way before her leaders, people, and institutions are ready for it? Are America's elected leaders always drunk? Do these people understand pushing democracy onto China before she's ready could implode the country? Have they any idea how much harm a 21st Century Chinese civil war could do to China, Asia, and the world? Finally and most importantly, do people in Western countries understand over 90% of Chinese are self-identified Hans, and they will never allow the country to be carved up?

The US-China relations is the most consequential bilateral relations in the 21st Century, and neither side could afford to get it wrong. US going for regime change and pushing democracy on China is a strategic mistake of the first order. IMHO, China will someday be a democracy (universal suffrage), but it will be democratic governance with Chinese characteristics, and on China's own timeline.

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Hong Kong pro-democracy activists admitted Tuesday they are powerless to overturn Beijing's refusal to grant them full voting rights, but the United States threw its weight behind the protesters, courting China's wrath.

Activist leaders had promised a new "era of civil disobedience" after Beijing crushed hopes for full democracy on Sunday, ruling that only pre-vetted candidates will be able to run for leadership of the semi-autonomous city in 2017.

But organisers from the pro-democracy group Occupy Central, who have vowed to take over the city streets, acceded defeat on Tuesday -- even though they said the protest would still go ahead.

"We have to admit the fact that up to this point it is quite unrealistic to think that our action will change the decision made by Beijing," Occupy Central co-founder Chan Kin-Man told AFP.

In a move set to enrage China's communist authorities, Washington, meanwhile, gave its backing to universal suffrage in the former British colony.

"The United States supports universal suffrage in Hong Kong in accordance with the Basic Law (Hong Kong's mini-constitution) and the aspirations of the Hong Kong people," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters.
View gallery
Democracy activist Chan Kin Man addresses the crowd …
Democracy activist Chan Kin Man addresses the crowd at the end of a rally next to the Hong Kong gove …

"We believe that an open society with the highest possible degree of autonomy and governed by rule of law is essential for Hong Kong's stability and prosperity."

The comments are likely to infuriate Beijing, which on Tuesday accused Britain of interfering in its domestic affairs over a British parliamentary inquiry into Hong Kong's political reforms.

"Hong Kong has returned to the motherland," China's foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang said.

"Issues concerning the political reform of Hong Kong falls totally within China's domestic affairs, which allows no interference from the outside."

But Chris Patten, Hong Kong's last British governor before the city was handed back to China in 1997, urged Britain to speak out. London has "moral responsibilities for what happens in Hong Kong", he wrote in the Financial Times newspaper.

Occupy Central are still planning to mobilise thousands of people to block major thoroughfares in the financial district of Central to protect the city's "core values" and "existing rights and liberties", Chan said.

But he acknowledged that supporters who are more "pragmatic" may back down.

"Ten thousand protesters was our target set in the past. We are still confident that thousands of people will join and it will last at least for days," he said.

A later statement from Occupy appeared, however, to backtrack on comments that support might wane.

"It is not correct to say we have less support," it read. "Although some pragmatic supporters may leave, new supporters are joining us because they are angry about the Chinese government's decision."
View gallery
Benny Tai (R) and Chu You Ming (L), co-founders of …
Benny Tai (R) and Chu You Ming (L), co-founders of the Occupy Central movement, rally with democracy …

- Long battle looming? -

Analysts said the movement may be changing tactics to dig in for a long-haul battle against Beijing.

"It is definitely a backing down but it is a strategic backing down," Surya Deva, a law professor at City University of Hong Kong, told AFP.

"They know they can't really get the desired change by a short, intensive burst of civil disobedience. They're getting ready perhaps for a long-term campaign -- and they need to build a base," he added.

Hong Kong police have arrested 22 people during a series of protests targeting a senior visiting Chinese official, authorities said Tuesday.

In the kind of scenes that would be unthinkable on the mainland, Li Fei, a senior member of China's rubber-stamp parliament, has been dogged by angry demonstrations throughout his visit to Hong Kong.

On Monday, police used pepper spray on demonstrators at a convention centre where Li was giving a speech.

Britain handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997 under an agreement which allows civil liberties not seen on the mainland, including free speech and the right to protest.

But discontent in the international financial hub is at its highest in years, with concerns growing that Beijing is waging ever-greater influence and that the city's freedoms are under threat.

The standing committee of China's National People's Congress, or parliament, said on Sunday that candidates for Hong Kong's leadership election in 2017 must be chosen by a pro-Beijing committee.

Candidates must win the backing of more than half of the committee members, with only two or three ultimately allowed to run for office.

Democracy activists say this will effectively ensure that only pro-Beijing candidates can contest the vote.

The proposal must win two-thirds support in Hong Kong's 70-seat legislature to pass
 

Player99

Junior Member
US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said America supports the Hong Kong democracy movement.

The US-China relations is the most consequential bilateral relations in the 21st Century, and neither side could afford to get it wrong. US going for regime change and pushing democracy on China is a strategic mistake of the first order. IMHO, China will someday be a democracy (universal suffrage), but it will be democratic governance with Chinese characteristics, and on China's own timeline.

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Agreed totally!
 

Player99

Junior Member
The problem is that's exactly what these "Pro-democracy" leaders goal all along. You think they care about money moving out of Hong Kong for Singapore? The main objective is to destabilize HK to make China look bad, the worse the better. The sad part is majority of the average people from Hong Kong don't care about democracy or elections one way or the other. They just wanted to make money and have a good life. It's the minority groups who are founded by foreign interests and those who got brianwashed by them that are creating the problems in Hong Kong.

Like many of you guys already mentioned, there was never democracy or free election for the Hong Kong people during the 150 years British colonial rule. The colonial Governors were always appointed directly by the British from UK. The so call democracy leaders never had any problem with it. But once Hong Kong was return to mainland China, NO Freedom NO Peace!

That's exactly the mainstream sentiment here in China. Most people think that the central government is too soft and way too lenient to these Hong Kongnese and should leave them selft-destructing while Shanghai and other places completely replace Hong Kong as the whatever hub it has been (mainly because of the mainland). Alas, as always, if that happens, the average and the poor will be the ones to suffer. :(
 

Brumby

Major
You mean like how people use Chinese history to charge China wants its neighbors to become vassal states again? Or how about the West using their own history of colonialism to scare Africans about China? How about now when I hear some people say China bombed Pearl Harbor? Not only are they framing the wrong country, they're bringing up history to paint China. How about people bringing up Mao? They are using history when the man is dead for what purpose? To create negative prejudice in the here and now.

Everyday all kinds of people say a multitude of things. How are the list of items that you mentioned have to do with the political issues currently in HK? They are contextually irrelevant.

Just like how you don't answer how come you didn't notice Janiz's far-fetched charged that China pays billions to the Western press to spread propaganda.

I had replied to this.

The British daring to comment about what goes on in Hong Kong is interference.

The British and PRC made the joint Sino-British declaration from which was the framework for the drafting of the Basic Law. As a signatory to the joint declaration, it is well within Britain's standing on the issue to make comments.

Just look at out of 156 years of rule over Hong Kong, they establish a pseudo democracy in the last six years only after they realized they weren't going to negotiate an extension on the treaty. None of that time before the British ever thought Hong Kongers deserved democracy. Where's the proof? They never established democracy. That's called a poison pill to only give the version of democracy, that China allows to continue, the British established in the last six years of their rule knowing they were on the way out.

Yeah... no outsider is interfering...

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The Sino-British declaration was a joint one meaning that China agreed to it rightly or wrongly and for whatever reason prevailing at that time. Griping about history and the British's ambivalence over democracy during their rule is bothering on counterfactuals because that would be discussing an alternate history that did not happen. If you take that path one can then raise the scenario had the ROC been not so corrupted and lost the civil war then maybe the issue of HK's democracy would not be an issue as it would be compatible with the current political model of Taiwan. Alternatively if the Ching dynasty had not been so corrupted, China may not have been so weak and lost HK in the first place.

If you want to gripe about British intentions pre and post HK 1997 like others, it is certainly a topic for discussion but as I said many times by now, it is not directly connected to the current political issue of universal suffrage.
 

Player99

Junior Member
I believe you wrote in good faith and is not some drive by comments and I will reciprocate by being truthful and respectful. Firstly I don't care about what others think of Chinese whether real or imaginary because we see the world not as it is but how we see it. That means stop seeing yourself as a victim and step out of the shadows of the past. On this thread and on the subject of HK, I have tried to stay on topic concerning current political events and the immediate issues associated with it. All the rest of the stuff that you mentioned was not even mentioned or discussed. The problem I see is that whenever any discussion on China crops up the historical baggage and the victim mentality immediately surfaced whether it has anything to do with the subject matter.

Btw, I am of Chinese ethnicity and my grandparents were from Guangdong province. I can speak Cantonese fluently.

Yeah, I realized that I wasn't quite on your topic as soon as I turned off the computer. :D But my logic I think was that I somehow felt that you thought we Chinese don't know what law, freedom, democracy, etc. are about ... especially when I didn't know you were ethnic Chinese (and my grandparents were and my mom is also from Guangdong province! ...I wish they had a hand shaking icon here).

And I do agree with you that too many Chinese suffer from the victim mentality, and there're those who took advantage of such mentality to instigate... But I'm quite certain that I don't have much of that problem, and didn't have it while replying to you. :D
 

Brumby

Major
Yeah, I realized that I wasn't quite on your topic as soon as I turned off the computer. :D But my logic I think was that I somehow felt that you thought we Chinese don't know what law, freedom, democracy, etc. are about ... especially when I didn't know you were ethnic Chinese (and my grandparents were and my mom is also from Guangdong province! ...I wish they had a hand shaking icon here).

And I do agree with you that too many Chinese suffer from the victim mentality, and there're those who took advantage of such mentality to instigate... But I'm quite certain that I don't have much of that problem, and didn't have it while replying to you. :D

I grew up in Malaysia but immigrated to Australia because with a Christian faith I did not wish to bring up my children in an Islamic country and the potential issues down the road that go with it. I grew up with the knowledge that Westerners thought Malaysians live on trees. It only reflects the ignorance of those who harbour such understanding.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Everyday all kinds of people say a multitude of things. How are the list of items that you mentioned have to do with the political issues currently in HK? They are contextually irrelevant.



I had replied to this.



The British and PRC made the joint Sino-British declaration from which was the framework for the drafting of the Basic Law. As a signatory to the joint declaration, it is well within Britain's standing on the issue to make comments.



The Sino-British declaration was a joint one meaning that China agreed to it rightly or wrongly and for whatever reason prevailing at that time. Griping about history and the British's ambivalence over democracy during their rule is bothering on counterfactuals because that would be discussing an alternate history that did not happen. If you take that path one can then raise the scenario had the ROC been not so corrupted and lost the civil war then maybe the issue of HK's democracy would not be an issue as it would be compatible with the current political model of Taiwan. Alternatively if the Ching dynasty had not been so corrupted, China may not have been so weak and lost HK in the first place.

If you want to gripe about British intentions pre and post HK 1997 like others, it is certainly a topic for discussion but as I said many times by now, it is not directly connected to the current political issue of universal suffrage.


Then why do people criticize China being a part of any UN human rights issue? Maybe because of history? You can't have it both ways. That's why the British can be held accountable for history because they lie about Hong Kong. Did you ask Janiz to show proof? No.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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I can't seem to find a full article on this story from the Australian. But it seems Clive Palmer did illegally divert money for his campaign and tried to sneakily pay back the money he siphoned. The interesting part is China wanted to go the through the legal root in Australia to expose Palmer. Billionaires... so stingy to just use their own money and now it looks like his world may be collapsing around from what I can read.
 
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