China Flanker Thread III (land based, exclude J-15)

[Blitzo]

I think the J-20 is currently focused on closer in missions because there aren't many J-20s.
And for these types of missions, there's no need to carry a non-stealthy fuel drop tank.

But if we're looking at 1000+ J-20s by 2030, there will definitely be enough for distant missions which would benefit from additional fuel drop tanks. For example, J-20s could launch from inland China with a pair of drop tanks. Then say at 300-1000km offshore, in still secure airspace, they jettison the tanks and still have a full internal fuel load. It saves them from relying on an airborne tanker which are:

1. very expensive when compared to number of drop tanks you can buy. Call it 15K drop tanks for the cost of a single YY-20 airborne tanker at $150 Mn
2. also very vulnerable to any sort of enemy fighter

If you think about it, in order to shoot down a J-20 from long-range, you need an X-Band radar seeker. But given that a J-20 can detect such a radar, the first thing a J-20 will do is jettison its drop tanks and become stealthy again. The MAWS will also detect incoming missiles.

The correct answer from you should have been: we have yet to see operational J-20s flying or equipped with four external fuel tanks, however it is an educated assumption that operational J-20s can carry four external fuel tanks because we've seen them on prototypes, and for certain long range mission profiles they could be useful.

 

[AndrewS]

nobody denying that J-20 is more effective than J-11D

But not in all areas need J-20. Think about NK, India, Vietnam, Mongolia, central Asia, etc. I think J-11D can carry much more missiles via external pylon, while J-20 is limited to internal bay only

Look at the current and future structure of the Chinese Air Force

Currently I get a following figures in terms of airframes which are already or can be upgraded to 4.5 Gen standard and also are suitable as air superiority fighters:
- 600 Flanker Airframes
- another 500-odd J-10 airframes

If you actually look at the Air Forces of India, Vietnam, Mongolia and Central Asia - you can see they only have 500-odd 4/4.5 Gen fighters. The existing Chinese 4.5 Gen fleet should be more than enough to deal with them.

But China doesn't currently have enough 5th Gen stealth fighters for a prolonged war of attrition and Air Superiority in the First Island Chain, because there are a lot more F-35 and F-22 combined.

And remember that a J-20 is at most twice as expensive as a J-11D, when looking at total cost of ownership.
But a J-20 should be much more effective at air-to-air.

Plus if you really need an accompanying missile truck, remember the J-16 can pretty much do the exact same job as a J-11D and should only cost marginally more. But the J-16 adds more flexibility in terms of air-to-ground.

 

[Deino]

I think the J-20 is currently focused on closer in missions because there aren't many J-20s.
And for these types of missions, there's no need to carry a non-stealthy fuel drop tank.

But if we're looking at 1000+ J-20s by 2030, there will definitely be enough for distant missions which would benefit from additional fuel drop tanks. For example, J-20s could launch from inland China with a pair of drop tanks. Then say at 300-1000km offshore, in still secure airspace, they jettison the tanks and still have a full internal fuel load. It saves them from relying on an airborne tanker which are:

1. very expensive when compared to number of drop tanks you can buy. Call it 15K drop tanks for the cost of a single YY-20 airborne tanker at $150 Mn
2. also very vulnerable to any sort of enemy fighter

If you think about it, in order to shoot down a J-20 from long-range, you need an X-Band radar seeker. But given that a J-20 can detect such a radar, the first thing a J-20 will do is jettison its drop tanks and become stealthy again. The MAWS will also detect incoming missiles.

This may all be, but since he specifically mentioned „Noticeably, it tends to go 2-4 drop tanks on longer-ranged missions. …“ and again, I see nothing „noticeable“ yet.

 

[by78]

Three more high-resolution images of J-11BG from Changchun.

 

[aahyan]

J-16

 

[aahyan]

J-16 @ night

 

[aahyan]

 

[aahyan]

J-11B/BS

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

nobody denying that J-20 is more effective than J-11D

But not in all areas need J-20. Think about NK, India, Vietnam, Mongolia, central Asia, etc. I think J-11D can carry much more missiles via external pylon, while J-20 is limited to internal bay only

For the China of 1993 and 2003? The J-11D is certainly a desperate sought-after by the PLAAF.

For the China of 2013? The J-11D still very much needed by the PLAAF.

For the China of 2023? The J-11D isn't really needed by the PLAAF anymore.

No matter how much upgrades the J-11D has received when compared to the J-11A/B in order to become the best 4/4.5th-gen fighter in the entire world - It is still going to be a 4/4.5th-gen fighter. It can never be a 5th-gen fighter, no matter how much 5th-gen capabilities Shenyang wants to squeeze into the Sino Flanker's airframe.

Furthermore, as the PLAAF is facing the ever-advancing tactics and strategies on how air war is conducted in recent years and into the foreseeable future - Having more true, from-the-ground-up 5th-gen (and 6th-gen towards the 2030s and beyond) platforms in active PLAAF service is much better for the upgrade and enhancement of the PLAAF's aerial warfighting capability across-the-board than just sticking with the 4/4.5th-gen platforms and trying to force the best out of its already era-limited airframe body.

In the meantime, speaking of the ability to carry missiles via underwing (and underbelly) pylons - Both the Sino Flankers (of all variants) and the J-20s are certainly capable of doing so, not just the Sino Flankers.

The major differences being that:
1. The J-20s are able to carry missiles internally for stealth mode in order to reduce chances of detection and be engaged by the enemy (therefore increasing survivability), but at the cost of limited number of missiles and missile types that can be carried when in stealth mode.
2. The Sino Flankers are able to carry more missiles and missile types, but at the cost of zero stealth capability which makes it relatively easier to be detected and engaged by the enemy

Both the Sino Flankers and the J-20s have their respective pros and cons - There is no way to eliminate their cons entirely without going through redesigning the entire plane from scratch.

What the military planners in the PLA should actually do is to utilize the Sino Flankers and the J-20s diligently and effectively according to warzone situation and mission requirements. Deploying them for the correct missions + in the correct location + at the correct timing based on their respective capabilities is key. There is no one-size-fits-all solutions for all the problems that existed.

Lastly, speaking of choosing which type of fighters to be deployed in which areas, we can't just look right across any particular stretch of borders - We need to look what's generally in the region corresponding to said stretch borders. And frankly speaking, China is already half-surrounded from the east and south - China needs every edge she can get to address both of those frontiers, which is way more than dealing with mere individual countries.

 

[drowingfish]

how close is J-11BG to J-11D?