China Flanker Thread II

[Quickie]

problem can traced back to the 1950's,according to a Chinese engineering professor,quote," the russian teach us how to copy, but not innovation". ....

The sentence don't make sense. Whoever spoke the sentence should've been fired or booted out. Nobody teaches a person to be innovative. It has to be his or her own initiative. And even a monkey doesn't need to be teached to copy something.

 

[challenge]

The sentence don't make sense. Whoever spoke the sentence should've been fired or booted out. Nobody teaches a person to be innovative. It has to be his or her own initiative. And even a monkey doesn't need to be teached to copy something.

most chinese make weapon was basically copy of soviet weapon.J-6+mig-19,type-59=T-54,type-56=AK-47
China did attempt to built there own but nearly all of them ended in failure.

 

[plawolf]

most chinese make weapon was basically copy of soviet weapon.J-6+mig-19,type-59=T-54,type-56=AK-47
China did attempt to built there own but nearly all of them ended in failure.

And that list ends at the 80s, curiously its also where your understanding seemed to have stopped as well. Ignoring inconvenient facts, how very typical of Challenge.

The J11A is a licensed version of the Su27 and so has nothing to do with innovation or a lack of it. The current Russian pique about the J11B is precisely because Chinese ability to innovate has far exceeded their original estimates.

They were not terribly worried about giving China Su27 tech as they were of the opinion that China could only copy and could not innovate. But now, the J11B suddenly looks like a strong match to their own latest Flanker derivatives because of the application of Chinese innovation and that is why they are acting so desperately with all the BSing in the media to try and bad mouth the J11B to pre-empt any international interest in buying it.

 

[challenge]

And that list ends at the 80s, curiously its also where your understanding seemed to have stopped as well. Ignoring inconvenient facts, how very typical of Challenge.

The J11A is a licensed version of the Su27 and so has nothing to do with innovation or a lack of it. The current Russian pique about the J11B is precisely because Chinese ability to innovate has far exceeded their original estimates.

They were not terribly worried about giving China Su27 tech as they were of the opinion that China could only copy and could not innovate. But now, the J11B suddenly looks like a strong match to their own latest Flanker derivatives because of the application of Chinese innovation and that is why they are acting so desperately with all the BSing in the media to try and bad mouth the J11B to pre-empt any international interest in buying it.

there was WS-6 HP TF jet,project started in 1965,abandone in late 70's,then there are J-12, started in 70's and JX copy of MIg-23 but with chin airintake abandone in favor J-8-3. a "typhoon" tank armed with 120mm and bustle auto loader abandone in favor improve T-69, a HQ-4 SAM guided by PAR ,program started in 60's project scraped in the early 80's, a PL-5 (not to be confuse with IR homing) copy sparrowAIM-7E abandone,type-356 (?) copy of APG-66 (V-1) abandone in favor of russian supplied radar.
China did attempt to developed on weapon system,but given the technology limitation,particular her industrial base simple or unable to produce high quality weapon.
Israel,during the late 60's also shamelessly copy from the french,like mirage-3 or rafael IR missile,which ford aeronautic accuse israel of copying there missile. or the merkava-1 tank, contain a lot of technology from M-60a1 and centurion,in fact, israel nickname the tank "Paturion" (PATton-cenTURION)

 

[rhino123]

there was WS-6 HP TF jet,project started in 1965,abandone in late 70's,then there are J-12, started in 70's and JX copy of MIg-23 but with chin airintake abandone in favor J-8-3. a "typhoon" tank armed with 120mm and bustle auto loader abandone in favor improve T-69, a HQ-4 SAM guided by PAR ,program started in 60's project scraped in the early 80's, a PL-5 (not to be confuse with IR homing) copy sparrowAIM-7E abandone,type-356 (?) copy of APG-66 (V-1) abandone in favor of russian supplied radar.
China did attempt to developed on weapon system,but given the technology limitation,particular her industrial base simple or unable to produce high quality weapon.
Israel,during the late 60's also shamelessly copy from the french,like mirage-3 or rafael IR missile,which ford aeronautic accuse israel of copying there missile. or the merkava-1 tank, contain a lot of technology from M-60a1 and centurion,in fact, israel nickname the tank "Paturion" (PATton-cenTURION)

I have been quiet for some time now... but I find that I have to throw some weigh here...

Have you forgotten J-10... (oh... and by your book, it is still a copy... of... perhaps Lavi?) What about the ballistic missiles, nuclear missiles, ASAT, world class destroyers... Type 99 (MBT)... the list go on and on.

Are all those just copies too? So Challenge... one sentence of advise, "WAKE UP and LOOK AROUND YOU."

 

[Maggern]

there was WS-6 HP TF jet,project started in 1965,abandone in late 70's,then there are J-12, started in 70's and JX copy of MIg-23 but with chin airintake abandone in favor J-8-3. a "typhoon" tank armed with 120mm and bustle auto loader abandone in favor improve T-69, a HQ-4 SAM guided by PAR ,program started in 60's project scraped in the early 80's, a PL-5 (not to be confuse with IR homing) copy sparrowAIM-7E abandone,type-356 (?) copy of APG-66 (V-1) abandone in favor of russian supplied radar.
China did attempt to developed on weapon system,but given the technology limitation,particular her industrial base simple or unable to produce high quality weapon.
Israel,during the late 60's also shamelessly copy from the french,like mirage-3 or rafael IR missile,which ford aeronautic accuse israel of copying there missile. or the merkava-1 tank, contain a lot of technology from M-60a1 and centurion,in fact, israel nickname the tank "Paturion" (PATton-cenTURION)

This is still all about the 1960s-80s. Is your point that innovation and technological prowess was lacking in Maoist China? Sure, I'll agree to that to some degree. However, it is through the 90s and 2000s technology and innovation has really accelerated in China. Refer to rhino123's post about some of the more recent developments.

 

[plawolf]

there was WS-6 HP TF jet,project started in 1965,abandone in late 70's,then there are J-12, started in 70's and JX copy of MIg-23 but with chin airintake abandone in favor J-8-3. a "typhoon" tank armed with 120mm and bustle auto loader abandone in favor improve T-69, a HQ-4 SAM guided by PAR ,program started in 60's project scraped in the early 80's, a PL-5 (not to be confuse with IR homing) copy sparrowAIM-7E abandone,type-356 (?) copy of APG-66 (V-1) abandone in favor of russian supplied radar.
China did attempt to developed on weapon system,but given the technology limitation,particular her industrial base simple or unable to produce high quality weapon.
Israel,during the late 60's also shamelessly copy from the french,like mirage-3 or rafael IR missile,which ford aeronautic accuse israel of copying there missile. or the merkava-1 tank, contain a lot of technology from M-60a1 and centurion,in fact, israel nickname the tank "Paturion" (PATton-cenTURION)

Yes, another pathetically outdated list. My point well proven. Have a cookie.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

there was WS-6 HP TF jet,project started in 1965,abandone in late 70's,then there are J-12, started in 70's and JX copy of MIg-23 but with chin airintake abandone in favor J-8-3. a "typhoon" tank armed with 120mm and bustle auto loader abandone in favor improve T-69, a HQ-4 SAM guided by PAR ,program started in 60's project scraped in the early 80's, a PL-5 (not to be confuse with IR homing) copy sparrowAIM-7E abandone,type-356 (?) copy of APG-66 (V-1) abandone in favor of russian supplied radar.
China did attempt to developed on weapon system,but given the technology limitation,particular her industrial base simple or unable to produce high quality weapon.
Israel,during the late 60's also shamelessly copy from the french,like mirage-3 or rafael IR missile,which ford aeronautic accuse israel of copying there missile. or the merkava-1 tank, contain a lot of technology from M-60a1 and centurion,in fact, israel nickname the tank "Paturion" (PATton-cenTURION)

There is no comparison at all . Israel is allies of the west and China is embargoed by the west until today. Israel is founded by Jewish immigrant and has million of symphatizer all over the western world

I can give you example of Kfir which is the product of Israely espionage and strictly copy of Mirage V with no original work whatsoever. But you didn't carp about Israely copying Mirage V.
here the story

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The Israelis are unwilling to give details on how they acquired the enormous documentation that was needed. In a work of fiction carefully written in the style of a historical narrative, Mirage, James Follett estimates that the Israelis received 150,000 drawings of press tools, jigs and piece parts ; 400 main airframe drawings ; 50,000 instrumentation drawings ; and 4000 engines drawings, in addition to some 50,000 documents covering testing and service specifications. This is probably close to the truth - and it gives an idea of the enormous scale of this espionnage coup - but it seems likely that the Israelis received all that from a variety of sources, not fron a single source as in James Follett's book. The engine drawings did come from a Jewish Swiss engineer named Albert Fraunknecht - re-named Albert Heinkein in James Follett's book - as the Swiss were building Mirages under a licence from Dassault, but the rest is conjectural. It has been speculated that part of the documents came from accomplices within the Dassault company itself, but nothing has ever been proved. Similarly, Dassault is rumored to have violated the embargo by providing the Israelis with two Mirage 5 airframes, something Dassault denies to this day. Only one thing is certain : James Follett was right to write that "in sheer volume of documentation, it was the biggest espionnage coup in history, and will probably remain so."

 

[siegecrossbow]

What's so hard about thinking up a new idea? Are Chinese people genetically incapable of innovation? Why is thinking up a new design for a manned aircraft so different from say a new ballistic missile, a new UCAV(have you seen their innovative designs?), or heck, even an Olympic opening show? Sure they take different technical backgrounds, but the ability to be creative is the same, no?

The reason Chinese engineers haven't gone beyond making advanced copies is because they have lacked the ability to manufacture anything more advanced. What's the point of designing an aerial vehicle which makes use of anti-gravity engines and anti-matter cannons when you lack the technical know-how to manufacture such things? And really, that's what it's all about. that's why I laugh at people who think "copying" an aircraft is so easy. For example, re: J-11B, if China can produce its own engines, radars, FCS, missiles, composite materials, etc. etc. do people REALLY think that it couldn't have come up with an original-looking airframe?

Full hearted agreements ! J-11 is a test platform for Chinese components. Su-27 is a tested airframe so it is a responsible thing for the Chinese Engineers to test new devices on it first.

Another thing we must not forget is that if China didn't bother with the J-11 she will have difficult times with the Su-27s/Su-30s in times of war. The Russian Flankers are only capable of supporting Russian armaments and you should NEVER be entirely dependent upon another nation for armaments. Remember what happened to Argentina during the Falkland War when France stopped supplying the Exocets?

 

[montyp165]

Full hearted agreements ! J-11 is a test platform for Chinese components. Su-27 is a tested airframe so it is a responsible thing for the Chinese Engineers to test new devices on it first.

Another thing we must not forget is that if China didn't bother with the J-11 she will have difficult times with the Su-27s/Su-30s in times of war. The Russian Flankers are only capable of supporting Russian armaments and you should NEVER be entirely dependent upon another nation for armaments. Remember what happened to Argentina during the Falkland War when France stopped supplying the Exocets?

On top of that, the US or NATO states have never hesitated to produce military hardware they didn't design themselves if it works well, both in the past and present (just look at the M256 cannon on the M1 Abrams, or the Harrier jet for example).