China Flanker Thread II

[Tam]

Except the J-10B has an ESA radar and the J-11B has a PD radar.

People need to stop using this PD, as in Pulse Doppler. Basically, all modern radars are Pulse Doppler, including AESA and PESA. Pulse Doppler has nothing to do with antenna design, which is what AESA and PESA are. Pulse Doppler simply means the radar uses Pulse Repetitive Frequency or PRF and Doppler principle. What people should mean is that the radar is mechanical, and uses a Slotted Planar Array.

The original Su-27s uses an Inverse Cassegrain antenna in the N001E set. But the West has moved to Slotted Planar Array for most fighter radar antenna designs. Attempts by the Russians to introduce a Slotted Planar Array on the Su-27 resulted in the Zhuk-27, which is based on the Zhuk N010 intended for the MiG-29, export versions offered for the J-8II as the Zhuk-8II and another version for the J-10. China opted into using an indigenous Slotted Planar Array radar for the J-10 called the Type 1473 --- the "14" means 14th Institute, which we know now as NRIET. Institute 14, which also developed the Type 346 array for the Type 052C/D and 055 destroyers, later developed the Type 1475(?) which is a larger version of the radar for the J-11. Type 1473 later developed into a PESA version, replacing the Slotted Planar Array, and the PESA eventually replaced by an AESA.

Having an AESA will do nothing for a close ranged fight if the other fighter can already detect you with its Slotted Array. The advantage of having an AESA is for two stealth fighters trying to detect each other for a first BVR shot. If the fighters are observable to each other, it becomes a matter who gets detected first and who gets the first shot.

 

[latenlazy]

People need to stop using this PD, as in Pulse Doppler. Basically, all modern radars are Pulse Doppler, including AESA and PESA. Pulse Doppler has nothing to do with antenna design, which is what AESA and PESA are. Pulse Doppler simply means the radar uses Pulse Repetitive Frequency or PRF and Doppler principle. What people should mean is that the radar is mechanical, and uses a Slotted Planar Array.

The original Su-27s uses an Inverse Cassegrain antenna in the N001E set. But the West has moved to Slotted Planar Array for most fighter radar antenna designs. Attempts by the Russians to introduce a Slotted Planar Array on the Su-27 resulted in the Zhuk-27, which is based on the Zhuk N010 intended for the MiG-29, export versions offered for the J-8II as the Zhuk-8II and another version for the J-10. China opted into using an indigenous Slotted Planar Array radar for the J-10 called the Type 1473 --- the "14" means 14th Institute, which we know now as NRIET. Institute 14, which also developed the Type 346 array for the Type 052C/D and 055 destroyers, later developed the Type 1475(?) which is a larger version of the radar for the J-11. Type 1473 later developed into a PESA version, replacing the Slotted Planar Array, and the PESA eventually replaced by an AESA.

Having an AESA will do nothing for a close ranged fight if the other fighter can already detect you with its Slotted Array. The advantage of having an AESA is for two stealth fighters trying to detect each other for a first BVR shot. If the fighters are observable to each other, it becomes a matter who gets detected first and who gets the first shot.

I knew there was a more specific term I wanted to use but slotted array didn't come to mind. And my point was that by function of being a newer and more advanced radar, the J-10B's might have better range than the J-11's, which would impact a comparison of their BVR performances.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The spanner was first tossed in 2016 when the Su-30s engaged F-15Js over the East China Sea and came out on top.

do you have a reliable source with date, time, aircraft involved, Air Force Magazine or similar? I'd love to read all about it?

Does China routinely use their J-11A or Bs for intercepts, or do they tend to use the older Russian aircraft?

 

[Tam]

I think this one? -

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The 3rd batch of 28 Su-27UBK were always R-77 compatible thanks to the N001VE compared to the Su-27SK and J-11.

The Su-27UBKs had the N001VE radar that is R-77 capable. Note that the UBKs are trainers in purpose, and if the trainers are R-77 capable, it means they are there to train pilots for using the R-77 on the main series line of aircraft ---- which are the J-11s themselves.

The first and second batches of Su-27SK were not R-77 capable, having the N001E radar, but the Russian supplied kits for the J-11s, which there are more than a hundred, all had the N001VE radar like the Su-27UBK that are R-77 capable.

The Su-30MKKs had the N001VEP radar that had not just R-77 support, but also the ability to support the Kh-31P HARM missile to attack enemy radar installations by homing in on their radar emissions. The Su-30MK for the PLANAF extends the peripheral support to the Kh-31A, which is the antiship missile version of the Kh-31P.

 

[Tam]

I knew there was a more specific term I wanted to use but slotted array didn't come to mind. And my point was that by function of being a newer and more advanced radar, the J-10B's might have better range than the J-11's, which would impact a comparison of their BVR performances.

The problem of using Pulse Doppler is because Cassegrains are also Pulse Doppler, and so are Slotted Arrays, Passive Phase Arrays and Active Phase Arrays.

The difference between Inverse Cassegrains and Slotted Arrays is in the design of the antenna and the mechanical principle for scanning. Note that the Inverse Cassegrain is sometimes referred to also as the Twist Cassegrain. Top is the Inverse or Twist Cassegrain, and the bottom is the Slotted Array. Incidentally the N001 Mech radar and the Zhuk-27.

 

[siegecrossbow]

do you have a reliable source with date, time, aircraft involved, Air Force Magazine or similar? I'd love to read all about it?

Does China routinely use their J-11A or Bs for intercepts, or do they tend to use the older Russian aircraft?

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/japan-military-news-reports-data-etc.t2436/page-187#post-403660

On June 17, an ASDF F-15 fighter jet scrambled against a Chinese fighter jet that flew southward in the direction of the Senkakus. According to government sources, the ASDF fighter approached the Chinese jet and issued a warning. However, the Chinese jet refused to immediately retreat, which resulted in both jets flying at each other several times. To avoid danger, the ASDF fighter launched a flare as a decoy against potential incoming missiles before retreating from the area.

China typically uses Su-30s (most of which operated by PLANAF) in entanglements with foreign aircraft. There are unverified rumors of J-11B usage as well.

 

[Tam]

I don't know if this was posted before, a recent article:

How did Japan lose its air superiority? Article compares once again, Eagles to Flankers.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In my opinion, JASDF lost it long ago, the moment their neighbors fielded active guided AAMs earlier and faster than the JASDF, and I am not just referring to China alone but also to other Asian countries.

 

[Skywatcher]

Doesn't the PL15 have a longer range compared to the other AESA equipped AAMs?

 

[ougoah]

I don't know if this was posted before, a recent article:

How did Japan lose its air superiority? Article compares once again, Eagles to Flankers.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In my opinion, JASDF lost it long ago, the moment their neighbors fielded active guided AAMs earlier and faster than the JASDF, and I am not just referring to China alone but also to other Asian countries.

Losing air superiority? Sure the F-15J was meant to counter early and mid life Su-27s and Mig-25s and Mig-31s but they still have F-2s and F-35s for air superiority. Given the small size of the nation, those two platforms offer quite a lot against all Japan's neighbours except for maybe PRC. F-35, F-2, and F-15J should easily be enough to maintain air superiority over Russia in the east region. Against PRC, it's anyone's guess.

 

[Tam]

Losing air superiority? Sure the F-15J was meant to counter early and mid life Su-27s and Mig-25s and Mig-31s but they still have F-2s and F-35s for air superiority. Given the small size of the nation, those two platforms offer quite a lot against all Japan's neighbours except for maybe PRC. F-35, F-2, and F-15J should easily be enough to maintain air superiority over Russia in the east region. Against PRC, it's anyone's guess.

F-2's roles are mainly for attack and BVR engagement. Its TWR of only .89 is pathetically low for a plane that costs 3x more than an F-16C, and that's a TWR lower than both the FC-1 and the FCK-1. F-35s are but a trickle and half to more than half of the F-15Js may not have been upgraded yet, or perhaps not fit or too old to be upgraded.

Russia has a strong decent come back story for its modernization of its large Su-27 fleet, which not only includes upgrades, but the addition of Su-30, Su-30M2, Su-30SM and Su-27SM3 (Block III are all built brand new and have Irbis radar). Su-30M2 is the equivalent of the PLANAF Su-30MK2 localized to RuAF needs, and the Su-30SM is localized version based on the Su-30MKI template.