China Flanker Thread II

[Engineer]

The UHF radars are part of a weapons system, what do you think J-11 will fight just with its own radar? why then the PLAAF has AWACS?
You are simply implying aircraft are just race cars, just fighting for honour, that is not true, as long as as UHF radars can detect stealth aircraft the Su-35 can know where is the F-22 via data link, and to get a fighting solution they need just get their sensors near the F-22 and Su-35 overlap their radar coverage.

To start Su-35 work in groups, and they overlap their radar coverage
You can see it in minute 1:23

The issue here is aircraft's abilities, not a military abilities. You are trying to misrepresent the latter as the former precisely because the Su-35 has no capability of its own to fight a stealthy opponent. When the fight is over the ocean, Su-35 has no help and would be shot before even seeing the F-22. Assuming the Su-35 has to be protected by ground air defense only highlights the uselessness of the Su-35 against a stealth opponent.

By the way here is a proof Su-35S is liked by the russian air force

Here is a proof that Russian Air Force is not impressed by the Su-35.

The Russian air force, however, doesn't seem that interested, and is looking ahead to the T-50 fighter. Watching the Su-35 demonstration flights in July, Alexander Zelin, commander of the air force, said: "This aircraft is being developed to test and verify ideas fo rthe fifth-generation fighter. Then we will work on the main task--to create the T-50."

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Another advantage of Su-35 over any of its Chinese couterparts is max speed, canards on Russian versions of Su-27s do impose a drag penalty reducing speed, all the Chinese Su-27 derivatives with canards suffer the same drag penalty, and Su-33/J-15 even more since its a navalized aircraft and has a weight penalty reducing further its max overload.

That only says the canards originally designed by Sukhoi were problematic. It highlights the limitations posed by an airframe, since the Su-27 prototypes were not designed to take off from aircraft carrier. Those same airframe limitations put the Su-35 at a disadvantages against new designs such as the F-22. That's why PAKFA exists.

That is another reason why 117S is an engine China has interest, since thanks to 117S, Su-35 dispensed of canards without losing an iota of agility

Nope. Russia presented the 117S engine to China at Zhuhai airshow, but China did not express interest by responding.

新浪航空珠海航展前方13日报道：俄罗斯联合发动机集团希望向中国出口新型117S军用大推力发动机，但至今为止中国军方还没有与之接触。

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[Engineer]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is a CGI of J-15s.

 

[Jeff Head]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is a CGI of J-15s.

Those are very nicely done.

Two seater attack and anti-radiation/jamming J-15s!

It will be interesting to see if such heavily laden J-15s will be able to launch from the foward positions on the Liaoning.

But you have the one there loaded with weapons and various ECM/Jamming pods and the other outfitted totally with weapons. A nice flight of aircraft, that.

 

[MiG-29]

In the F-22 case, their own stealth and detection capabilities will allow them to see and kill the SU-35 before the SU-35 ever gets to the 90km range made possible by the larger, longer wave length radars. But when those radars get "turned off", they will stop seeing it altogether.

Jeff

There are several ways to hunt for stealth aircraft without emiting a single signal.

Cassidian latest radar is passive, it means it does not emit a single signal and still tracks stealth aircraft and the stealth aircraft never will know it is tracked and targeted

Rafale has OSF which is passive it is a IRST system which allows a 80km range for sure.

Russia has radars which are Passive too.

and Su-35 has an IRST which is passive, F-22 will never know it is tracked.

UHF radars in the case of Nebo has more than 90km of range of detection in fact these radars are supposed to track targets at more than 400km-500km and since are longer wave they have much much range than IRBIS E for the same amount of power density.

Su-35 has 90km of IRST detection from rear approach detecting the F-22`s nozzles without even afterburner.
IRBIS E has a range of around 100km detection against a F-22 type but this is due to high power density



TO DEINO or any other moderator, if this is going out of topic could you move this to world armed forces section in another thread.

Jeff if you want we can discuss it in another thread.

regards

 

[MiG-29]

The issue here is aircraft's abilities, not a military abilities. You are trying to misrepresent the latter as the former precisely because the Su-35 has no capability of its own to fight a stealthy opponent. That only says the canards originally designed by Sukhoi were problematic. It highlights the limitations posed by an airframe, since the Su-27 prototypes were not designed to take off from aircraft carrier.

Look you just made a story for you to believe, Russia is buying Su-35 and now is the top fighter deployed by Russia operationally.

this video by vesti shows how the Russians see their new Su-35
[video=youtube;gXZMlsujCZA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXZMlsujCZA&list=HL1362193385[/video]
The canards are aerodynamic limitations and increase drag on Su-27s since they add a third plane airfoil.

This is not secret, in fact in this video by Wings of russia at Minute 15 and 16 they say it
[video=youtube;E7iLP0W6KMI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7iLP0W6KMI[/video]

The Su-33/J-15 will have the same drag increase and since it is naval will have the same overload limitation its russian cousin has


The Su-35 has data link and by that UHF radars feed information, in fact all modern fighters have to share information that is an ability of a true 5th generation in avionics

However the canard limitation was too all the SU-27 variants with canards such as Su-30MKI or Su-35/Su-27M

 

[Jeff Head]

There are several ways to hunt for stealth aircraft without emiting a single signal.

Cassidian latest radar is passive, it means it does not emit a single signal and still tracks stealth aircraft and the stealth aircraft never will know it is tracked and targeted

Rafale has OSF which is passive it is a IRST system which allows a 80km range for sure.

Russia has radars which are Passive too.

and Su-35 has an IRST which is passive, F-22 will never know it is tracked.

UHF radars in the case of Nebo has more than 90km of range of detection in fact these radars are supposed to track targets at more than 400km-500km and since are longer wave they have much much range than IRBIS E for the same amount of power density.

Su-35 has 90km of IRST detection from rear approach detecting the F-22`s nozzles without even afterburner.
IRBIS E has a range of around 100km detection against a F-22 type but this is due to high power density

I know full well what passive systems are all about, Mig-29.

The F-22 has been designed not just for radar stealth, its entrie set up with its engines and heat signature has also been designed for IR stealth as well.

So, I doubt seriously that those passive IR systems are going to pick up an F-22 at the ranges you are speaking of (whcih are their optimum ranges against traditional threats) against the F-22. I have seen no hard data, or outcomes of specific tests that indicate that that is the case.

No Rafale driver, much less an SU-35 driver has ever made such a claim difinitively based on a Red Flag or other exercise where they mixed it up with F-22s and accomplished anything like this.

Until they do, it will be a lot of talk.

OTOH, we do have a lot of allied IR and Radar tests and exercises that have been conducted with the F-22s in exercises pitting them against similar aircraft...and they end up having to keep the F-22s from using their BVR capability in order to allow them to get close enough to actually have a fight...otherwise, the F-22 is killing them at BVR in almost every case...including against US pilots and US technology.

Anyhow...no sense in continuing the discussion. You are clearly convinced...and that is fine.

I am not, and talk of it, and hypotheticals are not going to convince me on a forum such as this. Actual engagement exercises and their documented outcomes would be what I would look to at this point.

 

[Lion]

Amateur shot of J-15...

 

[Engineer]

Look you just made a story for you to believe, Russia is buying Su-35 and now is the top fighter deployed by Russia operationally.

this video by vesti shows how the Russians see their new Su-35
The canards are aerodynamic limitations and increase drag on Su-27s since they add a third plane airfoil.

This is not secret, in fact in this video by Wings of russia at Minute 15 and 16 they say it

The Su-33/J-15 will have the same drag increase and since it is naval will have the same overload limitation its russian cousin has


The Su-35 has data link and by that UHF radars feed information, in fact all modern fighters have to share information that is an ability of a true 5th generation in avionics

However the canard limitation was too all the SU-27 variants with canards such as Su-30MKI or Su-35/Su-27M

Irrelevant, as the Su-35 receiving external telemetry is not the same as the Su-35 being able to detect stealth targets. The analogy is that Russia having ICBMs does not mean their fighter jets are capable of launching ICBMs. The anti-stealth radars you speak of are ground-based and external to the aircraft, so any capabilities they bring are not inherent capabilities of the aircraft themselves. Navalized Flankers being handicapped by their needs to take off from an aircraft carrier does not add anti-stealth capability to Irbis-E on the Su-35. The existence of PAKFA already shows that Su-35 is not up to the task when fighting a stealth opponent.

 

[MiG-29]

I know full well what passive systems are all about, Mig-29.

The F-22 has been designed not just for radar stealth, its entrie set up with its engines and heat signature has also been designed for IR stealth as well.

So, I doubt seriously that those passive IR systems are going to pick up an F-22 at the ranges you are speaking of (whcih are their optimum ranges against traditional threats) against the F-22. I have seen no hard data, or outcomes of specific tests that indicate that that is the case.

No Rafale driver, much less an SU-35 driver has ever made such a claim difinitively based on a Red Flag or other exercise where they mixed it up with F-22s and accomplished anything like this.

.

The Su-35 has never been in Red Flag, niether NEBO radar i do not know about the cassidian`s radar, but i doubt it.

The first IRST imagery release publicly of an F-22 was made by Rafale.

What ranges the Irbis E or NEBO can detect F-22s well i do not know, the only thing i can say is UHF radars have longer detecting range and NEBO detected F-117s easily like any other fighter.


Any way i will open a thread in world armed forum sections and if you want we can discussed.

 

[MiG-29]

Irrelevant, as the Su-35 receiving external telemetry is not the same as the Su-35 being able to detect stealth targets. The analogy is that Russia having ICBMs does not mean their fighter jets are capable of launching ICBMs. The anti-stealth radars you speak of are ground-based and external to the aircraft, so any capabilities they bring are not inherent capabilities of the aircraft themselves. Navalized Flankers being handicapped by their needs to take off from an aircraft carrier does not add anti-stealth capability to Irbis-E on the Su-35. The existence of PAKFA already shows that Su-35 is not up to the task when fighting a stealth opponent.

your irrelevant is a way to excuse you lack of arguments, basicly a way to avoid realities.