China Flanker Thread II

[Engineer]

F-22 has no stealth against UHF radars that can detect it and F-22 is very visible even PESA radars at ranges a fighter supercruising and using jammers can render a AIM-120 useless plus IRST systems also detect F-22.

The F-22 being stealthy against the X-Band Irbis-E radar means the F-22 is hardly visible to the Su-35. Whether F-22 is stealthy to UHF radar is irrelevant, since the enormous size of such radar means the Su-35 will never fly with one. What this means is that the F-22 can fire a first shot before the Su-35 even knows about the F-22.

By the way the point is not if Su-35 is more detectable, but if a network system can detect the F-22 and if the network can manage to deter the F-22.

Su-35 has supercruising and with data link can know where is the F-22 the network system operates like a team, and that is the whole reason of NEBO, it detects the F-22, S-400 create a barrier to F-22 so it can not attack ground friendly forces and its targets and Su-35 can patrol assured that NEBO and other UHF radars will help to localize the F-22, its team work.

When you take away that network, the Su-35 does none of the things you claimed it can do. So, even within your own scenario, a F-22 is a challenge to an entire military while a single Su-35 is useless against one F-22. That highlights the advantages of stealth and the uselessness of the Su-35 against a stealthy opponent.

Wrongly attributing the capability of ground-based radars as a capability of the Su-35 is no different than claiming "aircraft and pilots work together, so pilots being able to piss means aircraft can piss." It is known as

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.

plus a big advantage of Nebo and Su-35 is they are cheaper

When you understand that you will understand what the Russian ministry of defence and his chinese couterparts discussed last time the Russian minister of defence visited China

ROFL! The existence of PAKFA indicates the Russian ministry of defense thinks otherwise.

 

[Engineer]

Deleted

 

[MiG-29]

The F-22 being stealthy against the X-Band Irbis-E radar means the F-22 is hardly visible to the Su-35. Whether F-22 is stealthy to UHF radar is irrelevant, since the enormous size of such radar means the Su-35 will never fly with one. What this means is that the F-22 can fire a first shot before the Su-35 even knows about the F-22.
.

If the F-22 is detected by UHF radars is the matter, there is no surprise, simple like that, Eurofighter has shown the weakness of a fighter without HMS and highly offbored missiles.

When you have no surprise, you can not hide.

The existence of Cassidian passive radar and the fact the in Europe are not as hurry to buy F-35 even cancelling a few examples shows what passive radars do to stealth.

Where is F-117?

Pakfa is not a F-22 type in philosophy, is a fighter designed with the idea stealth is detectable, why because NEBO can detect F-117s since 2002, so PAKFA is designed with kinematics more in mind than pure stealth.


Su-35 has something that China needs, the Engine that will allow supercruise, if J-20 has AL-31s as J-31 has RD-93s well their ability to compete in a world of UHF radars like NEBO or Cassidian passive radar means they have no advantage.

What is the advantage of J-20 versus Rafale or Su-35 if they can supercruise and J-20 can not?
what is the advantage of J-20 if UHF radars and SAMs can down it?

If UHF radars can detect it feed this information to Su-35S or Rafales thats Supercruise and have IRST systems?

by 2020, the current stealth technology will be obsolete in fact speed will be more important.

Why do you think UAVs are stealth? because they know stealthy UAVs can be brought down but once no pilot is exposed well the loses are lesses in human lives and in economic resorces.

You simply do not understand the current European and Russian thinking.

 

[Engineer]

If the F-22 is detected by UHF radars is the matter, there is no surprise, simple like that, Eurofighter has shown the weakness of a fighter without HMS and highly offbored missiles.

When you have no surprise, you can not hide.

The existence of Cassidian passive radar and the fact the in Europe are not as hurry to buy F-35 even cancelling a few examples shows what passive radars do to stealth.

Whether the F-22 can be detected by UHF/VHF has no relevance. UHF and VHF radars are ground-based. Even Cassidian's passive radar is ground-based. Radars that are installed on aircraft use X-Band and have limitations against a stealth opponent. The talk about HMS and high off-bore sight missiles are meaningless if the aircraft don't get to use them because of a hit from a BVR missile. It is that simple. The true counter to stealth is stealth, and even Russia Ministry of Defense realizes this.

Where is F-117?

Pakfa is not a F-22 type in philosophy, is a fighter designed with the idea stealth is detectable, why because NEBO can detect F-117s since 2002, so PAKFA is designed with kinematics more in mind than pure stealth.


Su-35 has something that China needs, the Engine that will allow supercruise, if J-20 has AL-31s as J-31 has RD-93s well their ability to compete in a world of UHF radars like NEBO or Cassidian passive radar means they have no advantage.

What is the advantage of J-20 versus Rafale or Su-35 if they can supercruise and J-20 can not?
what is the advantage of J-20 if UHF radars and SAMs can dow it?

If UHF radars can detect it feed this information to Su-35S or Rafales thats Supercruise and have IRST systems?

by 2020, the current stealth technology will be obsolete in fact speed will be more important.

Why do you think UAVs are stealth? because they know stealthy UAVs can be brought down but once no pilot is exposed well the loses are lesses in human lives and in economic resorces.

You simply do not understand the current European and Russian thinking.

You keep on claiming stealth is not useful. Yet, attempts to make the PAKFA stealthy already debunked your claim. On top of this, we have new stealth aircraft from the US in the forms of F-35 and UAVs, in addition to Europe's stealth UAVs. Even your own scenario proves the value of stealth: an entire military is needed to handle one single stealth aircraft while a single Su-35 is useless against a stealth opponent.

 

[MiG-29]

Whether the F-22 can be detected by UHF/VHF has no relevance..

for you yes not relevant, for the Russians and German defence ministries yes it is relevant since cassidian and Antey build radars for detecting stealth.

You simply can not swallow a reality, stealth is detectable, if PAKFA is stealthy is just to make it harder to detect, not because it won`t be detected.

In fairyland yes stealth is invisible like wonder`s woman invisible jet, in real life it is not.

Stealth means Low observable, only that, if you think J-20 or F-22 are wonder woman`s invisble jet well live on like that.

In Germany Cassidian and in Russian Antey think different.

T-50 relies in stealth as a measure of self defence, but relies on supercruise, and super agility when stealth fails.

Su-35 is cheaper as such might not be a 5th generation aircraft, but for the cash they pay and with NEBO radars it is a good option and shows that counter-stealth is always cheaper than stealth.

If NEBO lives up to expectations or Cassidian`s radar well it will show the US is wasting millions in dollars in fighters that just spend money and will explai why F-15C will remain active until 2035 and why Russia has Su-35s

 

[Deino]

Guys ... stay on topic and please leave this F-15/radar and so on discussions out of the Flanker tread !

Deino

 

[Engineer]

for you yes not relevant, for the Russians and German defence ministries yes it is relevant since cassidian and Antey build radars for detecting stealth.

They are irrelevant because of they are not part of the aircraft. Their capabilities do not constitute as the capabilities of the aircraft. Simple as that.

You simply can not swallow a reality, stealth is detectable, if PAKFA is stealthy is just to make it harder to detect, not because it won`t be detected.

In fairyland yes stealth is invisible like wonder`s woman invisible jet, in real life it is not.

Stealth means Low observable, only that, if you think J-20 or F-22 are wonder woman`s invisble jet well live on like that.

In Germany Cassidian and in Russian Antey think different.

T-50 relies in stealth as a measure of self defence, but relies on supercruise, and super agility when stealth fails.

Su-35 is cheaper as such might not be a 5th generation aircraft, but for the cash they pay and with NEBO radars it is a good option and shows that counter-stealth is always cheaper than stealth.

If NEBO lives up to expectations or Cassidian`s radar well it will show the US is wasting millions in dollars in fighters that just spend money and will explai why F-15C will remain active until 2035 and why Russia has Su-35s

As usual, when your myths are debunked, you invent some fictitious statements that I never said to argue against. That is a fallacy known as

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. Nobody ever claimed stealth aircraft is totally invisible. The simple fact is that X-Band radar used by fighter aircraft has limited capability against stealth opponents. The stealth aircraft can then get a surprise and first-kill on aircraft such as the Su-35 without having to dog fight.

You simple cannot accept that reality, so you came up with ever more ridiculous scenarios just to float your fantasy. You first assumed ground-based radars would see for the Su-35. Then you assumed ground-based air defense would fight for the Su-35. So essentially, the lack of stealth on the Su-35 makes the aircraft so useless that it has to rely on ground assets just to survive. Your own scenario proves how advantages stealth is and how useless the Su-35 is against stealth, which is rather ironic.

You want to believe stealth is useless, because J-20 is more stealthy than PAKFA. Unfortunately for you, even Russian engineers disagree with you as they incorporated stealth on the PAKFA. Germany disagrees with you by developing the Barracuda stealth UCAV. United Kingdom disagrees with you by developing the Taranis stealth UCAV. Even Sweden disagrees with you by developing the Fliur stealth UCAV.

 

[Engineer]

 

[MiG-29]

They are irrelevant because of they are not part of the aircraft. Their capabilities do not constitute as the capabilities of the aircraft. Simple as that.

The UHF radars are part of a weapons system, what do you think J-11 will fight just with its own radar? why then the PLAAF has AWACS?
You are simply implying aircraft are just race cars, just fighting for honour, that is not true, as long as as UHF radars can detect stealth aircraft the Su-35 can know where is the F-22 via data link, and to get a fighting solution they need just get their sensors near the F-22 and Su-35 overlap their radar coverage.

To start Su-35 work in groups, and they overlap their radar coverage
You can see it in minute 1:23
[video=youtube;p8C06dHhlXc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C06dHhlXc[/video]

By the way here is a proof Su-35S is liked by the russian air force

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Another advantage of Su-35 over any of its Chinese couterparts is max speed, canards on Russian versions of Su-27s do impose a drag penalty reducing speed, all the Chinese Su-27 derivatives with canards suffer the same drag penalty, and Su-33/J-15 even more since its a navalized aircraft and has a weight penalty reducing further its max overload.

That is another reason why 117S is an engine China has interest, since thanks to 117S, Su-35 dispensed of canards without losing an iota of agility

 

[Jeff Head]

I simply have to make an effort to get this thread back to something other than the F-22 vs. SU-35.

But, for a moment, before I do, here's my own feelings regarding these issues.

Simply stated, the F-22 in its numbers is a game changer. The Russians know this, and the Chinese know this, and those nations are doing all they can now to produce and deploy their own similarly 5th generation stealthy aircraft.

Even if the F-22 (and others) can be detected by certain large, longer wave length radars on the ground, thoser radars are going to be be emitting and very obvious and will be themselves targeted to eliminate whatever advantage they might give to their own fighters. The US regularly uses cooperatve engagement capabilities with its E-2D and E-3C aircraft who might accompany a raid of any large size...providing tremendous ECM and very long range radar coverage themselves from well behind the advancing attack and fighter aircraft. Those US fighters can literally have their missiles slaved to the AEW and AWAACS aircraft and not need to emit at all to take on an enemy aircraft the AEW/AWAACS aircraft may find for them.

In the F-22 case, their own stealth and detection capabilities will allow them to see and kill the SU-35 before the SU-35 ever gets to the 90km range made possible by the larger, longer wave length radars. But when those radars get "turned off", they will stop seeing it altogether. To avoid this, the adversary air forces are going to have to have significant stealth characteristics of their own so they can survive to get in closer themselves, sooner or later. And they are moving as rapidly as they can towards doing this and they are doing so for these very reasons.

So, while there is some advantage to using data link with the appropriate, land-based long wave length radar defense network into try and find and target advancing 5th gen stealth aircraft, I do not believe it will be a telling advntage because the US knows this too, and will be wanting those radars to emmit so they can be taken out, and will have F-22s accompanying the anti-radar attack aircraft that are tasked with taking it down, so those F-22s can protect them and take out any aircraft (like SU-35 or others, you name the variety) that try and close the distance to attack the oncoming anti-radar aircraft.

Now, if those aircraft are themselves 5th gen, highly stealthy aircraft...then that would be a different story and they will have a far, far better chance of contending with the attack they face. That's why Russia and China are doing what they are doing with the SU-50 and J-20.

Having said all of that...let me now offer this, as an attempt to introduce a change of topic.

The SU-34 is, IMHO, a very capable advancement of the SU-27/Flanker air frame. It is to the SU-27 Flanker what the F-15E Strike Eagle was to the F-15 air superiority fighter. Great range, and great weapons load. Here's my favortie SU-34 video to date:

[video=youtube;Q-deXUEHKEY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-deXUEHKEY[/video]​