China Flanker Thread II

[MiG-29]

The small RCS on a stealth aircraft allows it to see the opponent long before the opponent can see the stealth aircraft. A stealth aircraft can shoot down non-stealthy aircraft like F-15 and Su-35 without having to get close and maneuver with them.

Update your self, passive radars, IRST and UHF radars detect stealth, a detail NEBO is an aesa radar complex but uses UHF radar signals

The asymmetric dimension to future Russian air warfare programs entails the development of counter very-low-observable (CVLO) radar technologies and long-range, high-speed surface-to-air missile (SAM) designs, complemented by a new generation of short-range point defense weapons intended to destroy incoming guided weapons, especially anti-radiation missiles, cruise missiles and guided bombs. All systems are built for high mobility, typically with 5-min. “shoot and scoot” times to permit “scooting” inside of the targeting and engagement cycles of most guided munitions.

The focus in Russian CVLO radar has been in the 1-meter VHF band. Stealth shaping in fighters is largely ineffective in VHF because components such as stabilizers and wingtips have dimensions close to the radar wavelength. Radar-absorbent treatments developed for S-band and above are ineffective in VHF due to both electrical behavior and thickness. The flagship product is the NNIIRT/Almaz-Antey 55Zh6M Nebo M 3-D radar system, of which 100 were recently ordered to re-equip Russian air defense forces. The Nebo M is uniquely a “multi-band” design, comprising three radars and a central data fusion and command post module, all carried on separate high-mobility 8 x 8 24-ton vehicles.



The Nebo-SVU was credited with space-time adaptive processing technology similar to that or the Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye, and in 2002 NNIIRT's Igor Krylov said “We can see the stealth [F-117A] as clearly as any other plane”.

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Once you have a NEBO radar or a cassidian pasive radar in the case of Europe you can use a Su-35 or a Rafale with a very long range PESA and IRST that will detect the F-22 in a range of 90km and flies at supercruise making hard for the F-22 to fire its AAM near the no escape zone

because


Advances in processing power may enable better tracking systems for long-wavelength radars that reduce the historical LO technology advantage. We know very high frequency (VHF), and ultra-high frequency (UHF) long-range air defense radars can see stealth aircraft at great distances, because LO techniques are targeted towards X-band target-tracking radar systems.28 As the longer wavelength reflects off an aircraft, it significantly increases the Radar Cross Section (RCS), which enables VHF and UHF radars to detect stealth aircraft at further distances than fire-control X-band radars.

New Russian models like the Nebo surface vehicle unit, a VHF adaptive electronically steered array radar, likely presents a significant counter-stealth capability. By 2035 other technology advances could leverage this capability.
Another counter-stealth technology is Passive Coherent Location (PCL).

Currently many countries are fielding PCL radar systems such as the Russian VERA-E, which is said to be the only system that can detect the B-2

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[Schumacher]

The most important is Su-35 is entering operational service in the Russian air force, and it might enter service in the PLAAF.
.............

Actually, entering service with RuAF is the least important. Putin likely is forcing the AF to buy or Sukhoi giving them for free as a marketing ploy. Unless foreign observers are allowed to see how they're doing in RuAF, serious doubts of Su35 will remain.

 

[Engineer]

Update your self, passive radars, IRST and UHF radars detect stealth, a detail NEBO is an aesa radar complex but uses UHF radar signals
...
Once you have a NEBO radar or a cassidian pasive radar in the case of Europe you can use a Su-35 or a Rafale with a very long range PESA and IRST that will detect the F-22 in a range of 90km and flies at supercruise making hard for the F-22 to fire its AAM near the no escape zone
...

ROFL! Only in your fantasy world could a VHF radar be found on Su-35 or Rafale. Here is a picture of that NEBO system you talked about:

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The radar is huge. An UHF radar would be even bigger. They are so big because VHF and UHF have much longer wavelength than the signal used in X-band radars. There is no way these radars can be fitted on to an aircraft, so your arguments are invalid.

Now,

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. This band is targeted by stealth shaping, so the range of the Irbis-E radar will be limited against a stealthy opponent. Here is a quote from your

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:

We know very high frequency (VHF), and ultra-high frequency (UHF) long-range air defense radars can see stealth aircraft at great distances, because LO techniques are targeted towards X-band target-tracking radar systems.

What that means is that we would have a situation as illustrated by the diagrams below. The F-22 would have launched its BVR missiles already, while the Su-35 would have no idea that there is a F-22. The huge RCS of the Su-35 will only make F-22's job easier.

The F-22 provides "first-look, first-shot, first-kill" transformational air dominance capability for the 21st Century - it can see the enemy first while avoiding detection itself.

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A stealth aircraft has no need to maneuver with the Su-35, because the Su-35 would be shot down already.

The entire philosophy behind the F-22 was “see first, shoot first, kill first” in an effort to avoid the type of maneuvering fight that had previously been the norm in air to air combat.

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[Engineer]

Actually, entering service with RuAF is the least important. Putin likely is forcing the AF to buy or Sukhoi giving them for free as a marketing ploy. Unless foreign observers are allowed to see how they're doing in RuAF, serious doubts of Su35 will remain.

That's probably the case. The Russians air force doesn't appear too impress with the aircraft either:

The Russian air force, however, doesn't seem that interested, and is looking ahead to the T-50 fighter. Watching the Su-35 demonstration flights in July, Alexander Zelin, commander of the air force, said: "This aircraft is being developed to test and verify ideas fo rthe fifth-generation fighter. Then we will work on the main task--to create the T-50."

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[MiG-29]

ROFL!
What that means is that we would have a situation as illustrated by the diagrams below. The F-22 would have launched its BVR missiles already, while the Su-35 would have no idea that there is a F-22. The huge RCS of the Su-35 will only make F-22's job easier.

Do you understand the concept of data link?

By the way NEBO uses is a mix of radars it uses different types

once it locates the target it can feed that information to the Su-35 that can locate the F-22 at 90km from a 6 o clock even if the F-22 does not use its afterburner with its IRST and can triangulate that information with NEBO ground radar and its own IRBIS E that must give it a range of around 100 km.

But the NEBO can detect the F-22 even a longer ranges since S-400 have increased detecting range


Add S-400 SAMs give a barrier hard for a F-22 to beat.



for a reason the russian claim this

[video=youtube;u3vQfh-QwwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3vQfh-QwwQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]

[video=youtube;1GcAUaLrPNU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GcAUaLrPNU&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[Engineer]

Do you understand the concept of data link?

By the way NEBO uses is a mix of radars it uses different types

once it locates the target it can feed that information to the Su-35 that can locate the F-22 at 90km from a 6 o clock even if the F-22 does not use its afterburner with its IRST and can triangulate that information with NEBO ground radar and its own IRBIS E that must give it a range of around 100 km.

But the NEBO can detect the F-22 even a longer ranges since S-400 have increased detecting range


Add S-400 SAMs give a barrier hard for a F-22 to beat.



for a reason the russian claim this

Do you understand the concept of ground-based radar? A ground-based radar is meant for air defense of an area, not for air-to-air engagements. Furthermore, locking on an aircraft requires an X-band radar which ultimately requires the aircraft's own radar to be able to see the target. That X-band radar on the Su-35 isn't going to see very far when used on a stealthy opponent.

The fact that your own scenario requires the Su-35 to be protected by ground-based air defense shows the Su-35 is vulnerable against a stealthy opponent.

 

[MiG-29]

Do you understand the concept of ground-based radar?.

It seems you should say to the russians that

MOSCOW, January 8 (RIA Novosti) - Russia’s Aerospace Defense Forces will received about 20 new radar stations this year, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Tuesday.

The radars will include systems of different classes and modifications, including Gamma-S, Nebo-U and Podlyot-K, as well as modernized Desna and Kasta systems, Col. Alexei Zolotukhin said.

He said on Sunday the Russian military had tracked about 40 launches of foreign and domestic ballistic missiles and space rockets last year. The new radar stations that have been put into operation as part of the Russian missile attack early warning system enable it to track not only ballistic targets and space objects but also aerodynamic targets, he added.

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Of course that information can be data linked to interceptors too

 

[Engineer]

It seems you should say to the russians that

It seems your article agrees with me. Here is the proof:

MOSCOW, January 8 (RIA Novosti) - Russia’s Aerospace Defense Forces will received about 20 new radar stations this year, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Tuesday.

The radars will include systems of different classes and modifications, including Gamma-S, Nebo-U and Podlyot-K, as well as modernized Desna and Kasta systems, Col. Alexei Zolotukhin said.

He said on Sunday the Russian military had tracked about 40 launches of foreign and domestic ballistic missiles and space rockets last year. The new radar stations that have been put into operation as part of the Russian missile attack early warning system enable it to track not only ballistic targets and space objects but also aerodynamic targets, he added.

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Of course that information can be data linked to interceptors too

Radar stations are ground-based, not installed aboard the aircraft. As it stands, the Su-35 by itself cannot see very far against a stealthy opponent and is vulnerable against stealthy aircraft.

The F-22's characteristics provide a synergistic effect ensuring F-22A lethality against all advanced air threats. The combination of stealth, integrated avionics and supercruise drastically shrinks surface-to-air missile engagement envelopes and minimizes enemy capabilities to track and engage the F-22. The combination of reduced observability and supercruise accentuates the advantage of surprise in a tactical environment.

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[MiG-29]

It seems your article agrees with me. Here is the proof:



Radar stations are ground-based, not installed aboard the aircraft. As it stands, the Su-35 is vulnerable against stealth aircraft.

F-22 has no stealth against UHF radars that can detect it and F-22 is very visible even PESA radars at ranges a fighter supercruising and using jammers can render a AIM-120 useless plus IRST systems also detect F-22.


By the way the point is not if Su-35 is more detectable, but if a network system can detect the F-22 and if the network can manage to deter the F-22.

Su-35 has supercruising and with data link can know where is the F-22 the network system operates like a team, and that is the whole reason of NEBO, it detects the F-22, S-400 create a barrier to F-22 so it can not attack ground friendly forces and its targets and Su-35 can patrol assured that NEBO and other UHF radars will help to localize the F-22, its team work.

plus a big advantage of Nebo and Su-35 is they are cheaper


Disadvantages of Stealth Aircraft3
While much has been said of the virtues of stealthy aircraft and helicopters,
and their fighting prowess, these air-machines have to pay the price of the
stealthy technologies in terms of other combat features. Some of these are
briefly enumerated below.

Speed and Maneuverability
Firstly, stealth aircraft can neither fly as fast as conventional aircraft nor
are these as manoeuvrable. For example, the F-22 aircraft may be fast and
manoeuvrable, but it cannot go beyond Mach 2 and cannot make turns
like SU-37.
Payload
Another serious disadvantage with the stealth aircraft is the reduced
payload that these can carry. This is primarily due to the fact that most of
the payload is to be carried internally, in order to reduce radar signature.
Comparative Cost
Stealth machines are comparatively much costlier than their conventional
brethren. Experts opine that stealth aircraft cost their weight in gold
(Phantom Ray UAV—$50 million, F-117—$70 million, F-22—$100
million). The Russians are trying to break this cost barrier. Great designers
like Mikhoyan Gurevich and Sukhoi are designing stealthy frames with
price tags in the affordable range of Third World countries

Stealth-Counter Stealth—The Eternal Debate
Comparative Economics
In the eternal cause-effect context of stealth and counter-stealth, economics
plays a major role. Judged against this parameter, counter-stealth beats
stealth hollow; for example, a typical anti-stealth radar in Australia costs
US $1.3 billion, whereas an F-22 Raptor costs US$ 28 billion). It is, thus,
much cheaper to go for counter-stealth than to develop stealth.Abiding Vulnerability
The fact that a stealth technology aircraft like F-117 could be downed by a
Third World country (Serbia) by upgrading its 1960 SAM system, proves
the fact that all stealth aircraft are vulnerable to existing and futuristic
counter-stealth technologies, which are comparatively much cheaper than
the corresponding stealth technologies.

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When you understand that you will understand what the Russian ministry of defence and his chinese couterparts discussed last time the Russian minister of defence visited China

 

[kwaigonegin]

Your argument doesn't work, since my original statement involves a technological comparison of AESA to PESA, not a comparison between specific set of radars. So far, all you have done is attempted to change the comparison into something else, vaguely refer to technical specifics, while providing no technical specfics yourself.

The best method is to take preferences of air forces at face value. Until data shows otherwise, one cannot say PESA is equivalent or superior to AESA.

LOL... I could say the same exact thing back to you in which the original original statement (even more original than your original LOL) was bout people saying the AESA being superior to IRBIS-E in which henceforth I then brought up the apples to apples comparisons and not broad strokes generic comparisons between AESA and PESA ... which BTW I have said myself till I am almost blue in the face now that I am in agreement with you on that argument.