China Flanker Thread II

[SinoSoldier]

In that case I hope the Su35s have awesome ejection seats, because you are going to need it.

Even trying to claim the Su35 is better than the J11B is baseless since no-one here can say with any degree of certainty what sort of radar, avionics or EW performance the J11B has. The only area where the Su35 might be better is in terms of manoeuvrability because of the more powerful engines and airframe refinements. But saying that, the J11B also has its fair share of airframe refinements itself, so the differents might not be that great. So how can you definitively say X is better than Y when you don't even know how good Y is?

To suggest that the Su35 is better than the J20 or J31, which are a full generation ahead is pure nonsense and just shows up how little you know about modern fighters.

I think maneuverability is definitely in the hands of the Su-35, with their 142 kN 117S and thrust vectoring. However, the long range warfare capabilities of the Su-35 would be a bit lacking due to its PESA and Russia's inexperience with such.

 

[SinoSoldier]

China Purchases Su-35's-The Russian Side Story:

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... ers-china-indonesia

红字部分是说"许其亮升职军委副主席之后,支持了PLA空军的购买愿望,并安排了采购经费。"

More Sukhoi Fighters for China, Indonesia
AIN Defense Perspective » February 22, 2013

by Vladimir Karnozov

China will receive an unspecified number of Sukhoi Su-35 fighters from the Russian production line. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov)
February 22, 2013, 12:20 PM

Top Russian officials have confirmed sales deals with China for the Sukhoi Su-35 and with Indonesia on an additional quantity of Su-30MK2 multirole fighters.

Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy director at Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told journalists attending the IDEX 2013 exhibition in Abu Dhabi that Russian defense minister Sergei Choigu signed an intergovernmental agreement on the Su-35 with China in January. Dzirkaln, who headed the Russian delegation to the arms show, added that the work on firm contract is ongoing “in a planned manner” as the sides are “detailing” delivery terms. “There will be direct shipments only, not license production,” he clarified.

Furthermore, a member in the Russian delegation told journalists that the delay with the Su-35 deal was due in part to the reshuffle at the top of the Chinese military command following the 18th Communist Party Council in November. He suggested that the promotion of ex-PLAAF commander (2007-2012) Xu Quiliang to the Central Military Commission (CMC) was a decisive move in support of the air force’s wish-list and subsequent allocation of hard currency for it.China last purchased fighters from Russia in 2004, adding 24 Su-30MK2s to bring the grand total of Flanker-series aircraft to 283.

Earlier this month, another top Russian official confirmed that Indonesia is placing a firm order for six more Sukhoi Su-30MK2 two-seaters. Anatoly Isaikin, director general at weapon-sales agency Rosoboronexport, told the media that the deal also includes an unspecified number of Saturn AL31F engines and other equipment. The Indonesian air force already operates five Su-27SK /SKM single-seat and five Su-30MKK/MK2 twin-seat fighters.

Indonesia has been negotiating for additional Sukhoi jets since at least 2010. At that time, the country’s then-defense minister voiced Jakarta’s ultimate intent to form 10 Sukhoi fighter squadrons comprising 180 aircraft within the next 15 to 20 years. Although in late 2011 the negotiators came to terms on the main parameters of the deal–$470 million for six airplanes–the talks were prolonged over spare engines, maintenance tools and munitions.

Then, after a Sukhoi Superjet on a sales-promotion tour collided with Mount Salak on May 9, 2012, reports in the Indonesian media suggested that the country’s defense ministry was reconsidering the option of taking more Lockheed Martin F-16As instead of the Russian fighters.

Indonesian officials had previously indicated several times that they viewed pre-owned F-16s as an alternative to the longer-term investment in the Su-30MK2s. To facilitate further sales to Jakarta, the Kremlin-controlled VEB bank provided a seven-year export credit to the Indonesian finance ministry worth $399.5 million for the purchase of aviation equipment.

If the deal catches on and follows through, and that is a colossal if, then that only serves to prove that the J-11B's capabilities are on par with the Su-35, since the deal is most likely used to make up a short J-11B regiment.

 

[kwaigonegin]

PLAAF should buy those su-35's. They are more advanced than the j-11b and the engines would provide a lot of know-how. I would take a su-35bm over a j-20 or j-31 anyday.

SU-35 is a great airplane BUT if is is better than the J-20 (especially in A2A) then I think PLAAF and Chengdu needs to really reevaluate their priorities or fire their entire engineering team ...

 

[Lion]

PLAAF should buy those su-35's. They are more advanced than the j-11b and the engines would provide a lot of know-how. I would take a su-35bm over a j-20 or j-31 anyday.

I will take a J-20 and eat the Su-35 for lunch anytime. I bet you got shot down without even known what kills you. Su-35 airframe is absolutely not steathy and the weapon drag will slow its performance when compete against stealthy airframe. LOLz.

 

[Dizasta1]

That was one thing I didn't understand about the Su-35. Where it is claimed that the Su-35's engines 117S are capable of Supercruise. If that is the case, then would the Su-35 be able to Supercruise with a full weapons loadout?

 

[samawat]

Where it is claimed that the Su-35's engines 117S are capable of Supercruise

Test pilot said that in russian television reportage. And he was reffering to the plane capability, not the engine one. Since this was some time a go, this claim stands for the configuration without weapon load

 

[plawolf]

If the deal catches on and follows through, and that is a colossal if, then that only serves to prove that the J-11B's capabilities are on par with the Su-35, since the deal is most likely used to make up a short J-11B regiment.

The only way I see China buying Su35s is if it was a very small batch for study and evaluation, and 'purchased' via debt write off rather for real cash.

China wrote off 50 odd million rubles of Russian debt as recently as December of last year, so getting something out of such bad debt is better than writing it off as far as China is concerned, and the Russians can claim a 'sale' to help boost the street cred of their Su35. That idea struck me from reading the latest Russian claim with its peculiar stress on sale for 'hard currency', just seems a completely unnecessary thing for anyone to say, and stressing it may have been a case of overcompensation.

Operationally, there is just no way China would field even a regiment of Su35s because of the massive logistical and comparability issues that would create.

Fighters that rely on expensive and limited imported munitions and which cannot easily datalink with other PLAAF or PLANAF fighters or AWACS/ground radar or compatable with Chinese EW aircraft are of very very limited battlefield value. Strike aircraft like the MKKs and MK2s might get away with this to some extent because strike aircraft do not need to co-operate with other assets as much as air superiority fighters. But the Su35 is very much an air superiority fighter, and in a world where everyone else is fighting as a seamless team, those who fight as individuals, no matter how capable, will almost always loose.

But even if the Russians were effectively offering Su35s for free since China does not need to actually pay any more money for them, there is still a good chance China won't take the deal. They would much rather use that debt write off to buy things they actually need like more engines or oil and gas etc. Because even though those Su35s might be effectively free to have, it will still cost China a lot of money to operate them, even just at Yanling since they would be dependent on Russia for spares and survices, and the lifetime operational cost of advanced fast jets can easily equal or exceed the fly away cost of the airframes.

 

[MiG-29]

The only way I see China buying Su35s is if it was a very small batch for study and evaluation, and 'purchased' via debt write off rather for real cash.

.

Are you in the negociation team?
How do you know Sukhoi is not asking for cash?
I bet you have sources inside Sukhoi and Lyulka Saturn.

Your insider knowledge is very reliable.

Well i guess i can expect this typical opinion in this thread.

 

[MiG-29]

I will take a J-20 and eat the Su-35 for lunch anytime. I bet you got shot down without even known what kills you. Su-35 airframe is absolutely not steathy and the weapon drag will slow its performance when compete against stealthy airframe. LOLz.

This is the most important test for stealth, if modern radars can detect stealth aircraft and IRST allow a window of oportunity.

However there is a big advantage of 4th generation fighters they can be armed with few missiles, but true the posibilities are not confirmed. But who knows radar technology might have catch up with stealth.

drop tanks and a light configuration allow a Su-35 to achieve Supercruise, J-20 in the other hand is unconfirmed it has supercruise and the canards deflecting will increase RCS plus the ventral fins and nozzles have almost no stealth treatment from Behind J-20 is detectable as Su-35.

Any way Su-35 will fly along side T-50s in the Russian airforce, in the same way the USAF will fly F-22s with F-15s

But in my opinion a radar that can detect a F-15 at 400km away must have the ability to catch up a Stealth fighter in the region 100-150km and flying at supercruise Su-35 is a very difficult target specially since it can fly at Mach 2+

 

[Totoro]

But in my opinion a radar that can detect a F-15 at 400km away must have the ability to catch up a Stealth fighter in the region 100-150km and flying at supercruise Su-35 is a very difficult target specially since it can fly at Mach 2+

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that particular opinion goes against everything that is said about in-practice achievable RCS values of next gen planes and detection ranges against them. One will be really hard pressed to find anything close to values you suggest. On the other hand, different values are bountiful in myriad of source that state, roughly, the following: If a radar can detect a f15-sized contact at 400km (which very few fighter borne radars can, even today, and probably none can positively identify such a contact as f15 from such distance) he would not be able to detect a target with RCS five orders of magnitude smaller farther than some 25 km away. Four orders of magnitude lower RCS would be detected 40 km away. Three orders of magnitude smaller some 70 km away. Two orders of magnitude lower some 125 km away. Please note that two orders of magnitude is already pretty high RCS, -10 dBsm or 0.1 m2, which is not that good of a RF stealth value in this day and age.

And yes, RCS is dependand on wavelength and view angle, but if we talk about most commonly achievable in practice angles and most commonly used wavelength in fighter radars - several order of magnitude lower RCS values are quite realistic.