China Flanker Thread II

[tphuang]

I cannot believe this report: it sounded like China is going to import Su-35 from Russia:

记者：据俄媒报道，前不久俄罗斯防长绍伊古访华期间，俄中双方就俄向中方出售24架苏35战斗机达成 了初步协议，合同价值超过了15亿美元，请予以证实？第二个问题，另据报道近年中俄军技合作出现了一 些问题，如伊尔-76MD运输机和伊尔-78加油机项目迟迟未能履行，还有中方未经俄方许可擅自改制俄罗斯 装备，请问对此进行评论？

　　耿雁生：11月20日至21日，俄罗斯国防部长绍伊古应邀访华，胡锦涛主席、**副主席许其亮、国务委员兼国防部长梁光烈分别与其举行会见、会谈，双方就共同关心的问题深入交换意见，对近年来两国军技合作成果予以充分肯定，并就下一步合作事宜进行了研究和探讨。双方一致认为，中俄军技合作不针对第三方，有利于世界和地区的和平稳定。中俄都有完整的国防工业体系和较强的装备研制生产能力，两国军技合作有着广阔的前景和发展空间。双方表示，将巩固并进一步扩大军际合作，以实现互利共赢。　　第二个问题，有关报道捕风捉影，不符合事实。

if you cannot believe it and we've explicitly said to stop this discussion until such a sale is confirmed, why are you posting this?

 

[AeroEngineer]

I recall the original offer was 48 Su-35's for $4 billion, but since Russia lost the sale in India and Brazil, they were more willing to accept $1.5 billion for 24. However...

1. It's questionable that the Chinese military would spend the $1.5 billion to import Su-35's.

2. The Russians would probably prefer a larger sale for any kind of tech transfer and localized production.

3. When you sign a $400 million contract (T/A-50) with the Indonesians, the contract may somehow magically reduce to $280 million with barter. In contrast, when you sign an $800 million contract (INS Vikramaditya) with the Russians, the contract may somehow magically grow to $2.35 billion after years of delay. The Russians had wanted to bump the price up to as high as $3.4 billion.

THis is why I doubt the Su-35 sales will ever come true.

At this moment China wants something from Russia, such as : 1. Some second hand IL-76. 2. Some S-400.

Those two are most likely true, so right now China does not want to piss off Russia by publicly rejecting the Su-35. But once the deal for IL-76 and S-400 are signed, China will once again reject Su-35. I also doubt that China wants 117S engine, since it is not that much better than WS-10A !

This is just like the Tu-22M sh!t over and over again, and Su-33 crap. It will never stop unless China told the Russian in the face that they dont want it !

 

[MiG-29]

if you cannot believe it and we've explicitly said to stop this discussion until such a sale is confirmed, why are you posting this?

Let me say something, a few years ago there were news by Russian Media that the J-11B was an illegal copy, i remember the attitude of many claiming the Russian media was lying and so and so, today Russia and China already solved the issue, in fact Sukhoi has already published the news that finally the issue is over see:



Moscow, November 12. Sukhoi Company will present its combat aircraft — Su-35 multifunctional fighter
and Su-32 (Su-34 export version) at the Airshow China-2012 international exhibition that opens on November 13 in the Chinese city of Zhuhai. Specialists and visitors of the exhibition will be able to learn the specifications and combat capabilities of the aircraft at the corporate stand of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in the Russian exposition.

The civic project of Sukhoi — the Sukhoi Superjet 100 medium-range airliner will be presented at the air show for the fist time. The aircraft will be displayed in Yakutia Airlines livery on a static display for the general public and representatives of the regional airlines.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft. The framework established on the basis of long-term cooperation provides for the transition in the near future to a new level of cooperation on major projects

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I do not know what all of you made a taboo the SU-35 negociations between China and Russia, specially when Pogyosian already spoke, they are in negociations undoutedly, the sale is not yet a fact; but as the J-11B issue negociations were taking place, now probably J-11B or J-15 are already legal aircraft in the Russian eyes or close to it since Sukhoi is claiming the license is still going on

 

[AeroEngineer]

Let me say something, a few years ago there were news by Russian Media that the J-11B was an illegal copy, i remember the attitude of many claiming the Russian media was lying and so and so, today Russia and China already solved the issue, in fact Sukhoi has already published the news that finally the issue is over see:



Moscow, November 12. Sukhoi Company will present its combat aircraft — Su-35 multifunctional fighter
and Su-32 (Su-34 export version) at the Airshow China-2012 international exhibition that opens on November 13 in the Chinese city of Zhuhai. Specialists and visitors of the exhibition will be able to learn the specifications and combat capabilities of the aircraft at the corporate stand of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in the Russian exposition.

The civic project of Sukhoi — the Sukhoi Superjet 100 medium-range airliner will be presented at the air show for the fist time. The aircraft will be displayed in Yakutia Airlines livery on a static display for the general public and representatives of the regional airlines.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft. The framework established on the basis of long-term cooperation provides for the transition in the near future to a new level of cooperation on major projects

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I do not know what all of you made a taboo the SU-35 negociations between China and Russia, specially when Pogyosian already spoke, they are in negociations undoutedly, the sale is not yet a fact; but as the J-11B issue negociations were taking place, now probably J-11B or J-15 are already legal aircraft in the Russian eyes or close to it since Sukhoi is claiming the license is still going on

So it is all about money ?

We will give you some money. But Su-35 ? No thanks !

You russians just want to use this sale to mock down J-20, and J-31. !!

 

[Engineer]

Let me say something, a few years ago there were news by Russian Media that the J-11B was an illegal copy, i remember the attitude of many claiming the Russian media was lying and so and so, today Russia and China already solved the issue, in fact Sukhoi has already published the news that finally the issue is over see:



Moscow, November 12. Sukhoi Company will present its combat aircraft — Su-35 multifunctional fighter
and Su-32 (Su-34 export version) at the Airshow China-2012 international exhibition that opens on November 13 in the Chinese city of Zhuhai. Specialists and visitors of the exhibition will be able to learn the specifications and combat capabilities of the aircraft at the corporate stand of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in the Russian exposition.

The civic project of Sukhoi — the Sukhoi Superjet 100 medium-range airliner will be presented at the air show for the fist time. The aircraft will be displayed in Yakutia Airlines livery on a static display for the general public and representatives of the regional airlines.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft. The framework established on the basis of long-term cooperation provides for the transition in the near future to a new level of cooperation on major projects

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I do not know what all of you made a taboo the SU-35 negociations between China and Russia, specially when Pogyosian already spoke, they are in negociations undoutedly, the sale is not yet a fact; but as the J-11B issue negociations were taking place, now probably J-11B or J-15 are already legal aircraft in the Russian eyes or close to it since Sukhoi is claiming the license is still going on

There was never anything illegal about the J-11B in the first place, since it was the intention of the original contract that China would eventually be able to locally produce the Flanker. It just that the Russians made a big fuzz about the J-11B because of how China stopped importing Su-27 kits half way through the contract.

 

[kwaigonegin]

There was never anything illegal about the J-11B in the first place, since it was the intention of the original contract that China would eventually be able to locally produce the Flanker. It just that the Russians made a big fuzz about the J-11B because of how China stopped importing Su-27 kits half way through the contract.

If China broke the contract pre-expiration, do you know if they got fined or other compensation for it?

 

[MiG-29]

If China broke the contract pre-expiration, do you know if they got fined or other compensation for it?

if you read in MAKS 2009, Rosoboronexport`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin said Russia was going to investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process

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. In 2010 the official webpage of Rosoboronexport reported that year from the airshow China 2010, that Alexander Miheev also from Rosoboronexport was in talks with the Chinese side to investigate Chinese production of weapons that Russia considered were copycats without license, the Russian expressed their concerns of possible sales of Russian weapons such as Su-33 and Su-35

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.


It seems they had troubles with the license but now they have fixed the problems and i guess now J-11B and J-15 are legal

 

[AeroEngineer]

if you read in MAKS 2009, Rosoboronexport`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin said Russia was going to investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. In 2010 the official webpage of Rosoboronexport reported that year from the airshow China 2010, that Alexander Miheev also from Rosoboronexport was in talks with the Chinese side to investigate Chinese production of weapons that Russia considered were copycats without license, the Russian expressed their concerns of possible sales of Russian weapons such as Su-33 and Su-35

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.


It seems they had troubles with the license but now they have fixed the problems and i guess now J-11B and J-15 are legal

Of course they are legal now. China paid big bucks for it.

It is all your russians's falut. You want to sell sub standard Flankers to China (Monkey Models), and hope that China will take it. Well, we aint. We use our own systems, radars, avonics, weapons, and engines that are better than what you russians have offered.

And in the end we pay you some money to compensate that !!

But hey at least we got better stuffs by doing so !

 

[Engineer]

if you read in MAKS 2009, Rosoboronexport`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin said Russia was going to investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. In 2010 the official webpage of Rosoboronexport reported that year from the airshow China 2010, that Alexander Miheev also from Rosoboronexport was in talks with the Chinese side to investigate Chinese production of weapons that Russia considered were copycats without license, the Russian expressed their concerns of possible sales of Russian weapons such as Su-33 and Su-35

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.


It seems they had troubles with the license but now they have fixed the problems and i guess now J-11B and J-15 are legal

Of course J-11B and J-15 are legal, since they aren't illegal in the first place.

 

[Quickie]

Does that mean they entered into a kind of OEM agreement? The only difference is that China manufacture the flankers under license using entirely local parts and only for their own use.