China Flanker Thread II

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
.


Actually, your assertion that J-11B cannot out power Flankers outside of China is the statement that is outside of reality here. WS-10A can generate a quoted thrust of 132kN, versus 123kN delivers by AL-31F and AL-31FP that are currently being used in Flanker fleets worldwide. .
The enterprise’s design bureau has developed modification of AL-31F engine with increased life time and thrust. In 2007 after successful state test this modification was approved as arsenal of Russia Air Force. Engine type – by-passed, two-shaft engine with flow mixture of internal and external ducts behind the turbine, with afterburner common for two ducts and adjustable supersonic fully variable jet nozzle. The engine is intended to power SU-27 aircraft and its modifi¬cation (SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others). The engine is fully interchangeable with serial AL-31F engine.


AL-31F (42 series) M1
Design modular
Maximum thrust, kgf 13500

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[video=youtube;wsJyC5g4IBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsJyC5g4IBo&feature=BFa&list=PL8D58E888D8E1D07C[/video]
read before speak
 
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drunkmunky

Junior Member
So the 42 series is a totally different engine then. With the new thrust specifications and the vectoring nozzle that you posted, it's a totally different engine. It's logical for the Russian federation to move beyond the AL-31's. This also recognizes that China is only purchasing replacement engines, rather than engines for new planes, as they are trying to ramp up WS-10 production numbers.

I'd like to find out what the service life of the new 42 series is when it enters service. Not projections, but actual service numbers.

If we're speaking about a new russian engine, we might as well go into the ws-15. But that should be done in the engine thread.
 

Engineer

Major
The enterprise’s design bureau has developed modification of AL-31F engine with increased life time and thrust. In 2007 after successful state test this modification was approved as arsenal of Russia Air Force. Engine type – by-passed, two-shaft engine with flow mixture of internal and external ducts behind the turbine, with afterburner common for two ducts and adjustable supersonic fully variable jet nozzle. The engine is intended to power SU-27 aircraft and its modifi¬cation (SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others). The engine is fully interchangeable with serial AL-31F engine.


AL-31F (42 series) M1
Design modular
Maximum thrust, kgf 13500

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

[video=youtube;wsJyC5g4IBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsJyC5g4IBo&feature=BFa&list=PL8D58E888D8E1D07C[/video]
read before speak

You need to get your facts right. Flankers sold worldwide use AL-31F while the India's Flankers use AL-31FP, both of these engines only have
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. These Flankers do not use AL-31FM1. Comparison on thrust alone, these Flankers being less powerful than J-11B is a fact. Your assertion that J-11B cannot out power Flankers outside of China remains nothing more than a typical fairy tale.
2Z8PB.png


As for the AL-31FM1, it is an engine made for Russia to upgrade existing fleet of Flankers. Su-27 that have received such upgrade are called Su-27SM, but because they have old airframe and use less composite materials, they are heavier than their Chinese counterpart thus being in a disadvantageous position. The same situation applies for Su-33 versus J-15, with the latter enjoying an advantage simply because it has a newer airframe.

What is significant is that even though AL-31FM1 has been offered to China, China made a switch to WS-10A anyway. This shows AL-31FM1 is not anymore powerful than engines made by China.
 

Engineer

Major
So the 42 series is a totally different engine then. With the new thrust specifications and the vectoring nozzle that you posted, it's a totally different engine. It's logical for the Russian federation to move beyond the AL-31's. This also recognizes that China is only purchasing replacement engines, rather than engines for new planes, as they are trying to ramp up WS-10 production numbers.

I'd like to find out what the service life of the new 42 series is when it enters service. Not projections, but actual service numbers.

If we're speaking about a new russian engine, we might as well go into the ws-15. But that should be done in the engine thread.

The AL-31FM1 is not a totally different engine, and much of it is still based on the AL-31F. Raising engine performance typically involves raising the turbine temperature, which sees modification of the combustion chamber and use of more heat resistance materials for the turbine.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
You need to get your facts right. Flankers sold worldwide use AL-31F while the India's Flankers use AL-31FP, both of these engines only have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. These Flankers do not use AL-31FM1. Comparison on thrust alone, these Flankers being less powerful than J-11B is a fact. Your assertion that J-11B cannot out power Flankers outside of China remains nothing more than a typical fairy tale.
2Z8PB.png


As for the AL-31FM1, it is an engine made for Russia to upgrade existing fleet of Flankers. Su-27 that have received such upgrade are called Su-27SM, but because they have old airframe and use less composite materials, they are heavier than their Chinese counterpart thus being in a disadvantageous position. The same situation applies for Su-33 versus J-15, with the latter enjoying an advantage simply because it has a newer airframe.

What is significant is that even though AL-31FM1 has been offered to China, China made a switch to WS-10A anyway. This shows AL-31FM1 is not anymore powerful than engines made by China.

SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others
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such as


The Su-30SM, a localized version of the Su-30MKI fighter currently exported to India, will serve as a second security blanket for the Russian Air Force. The Defense Ministry has commissioned 30 such aircraft recently
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This comes after Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev called for "postponements" in deliveries of "some military items on order" so as to reduce burden on the Russian budget, and for assets to be leased rather than bought.

The air force is to take delivery of more than 100 combat and transport helicopters this year, plus more than 60 "new and upgraded" aircraft.

Bondarev says deliveries will rise from "175-180" in 2012 to 200-plus next year. Modern systems "such as the Su-35, MiG-29SMT, MiG-35, T-50 and Yak-130" will account for 80% of the fleet within a decade, he adds.

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The Russian Air Force will receive the first six Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E multirole fighter jets by the end of 2012, spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Monday.

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Read before speak
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
So the 42 series is a totally different engine then. With the new thrust specifications and the vectoring nozzle that you posted, it's a totally different engine. It's logical for the Russian federation to move beyond the AL-31's. This also recognizes that China is only purchasing replacement engines, rather than engines for new planes, as they are trying to ramp up WS-10 production numbers.

I'd like to find out what the service life of the new 42 series is when it enters service. Not projections, but actual service numbers.

If we're speaking about a new russian engine, we might as well go into the ws-15. But that should be done in the engine thread.

the engine is in production, however it seems russia won`t sell to China 3-4 117s or 1-4 Su-35.

After the J-11 debacle, Sukhoi, is only willing to make money, the reality is Russia has 4 engines of 14.5tonnes of thrust or more like 117 or type 30.
 
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Engineer

Major
SU-27SM, SU-33, SU-34 and others
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such as


The Su-30SM, a localized version of the Su-30MKI fighter currently exported to India, will serve as a second security blanket for the Russian Air Force. The Defense Ministry has commissioned 30 such aircraft recently
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


This comes after Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev called for "postponements" in deliveries of "some military items on order" so as to reduce burden on the Russian budget, and for assets to be leased rather than bought.

The air force is to take delivery of more than 100 combat and transport helicopters this year, plus more than 60 "new and upgraded" aircraft.

Bondarev says deliveries will rise from "175-180" in 2012 to 200-plus next year. Modern systems "such as the Su-35, MiG-29SMT, MiG-35, T-50 and Yak-130" will account for 80% of the fleet within a decade, he adds.

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The Russian Air Force will receive the first six Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E multirole fighter jets by the end of 2012, spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Monday.

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Read before speak

Let me put you into place with a simple fact. AL-31FP powers the Su-30MKI in India, as explained on
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:
AL-31FP engines power advanced multi-purpose Su-30 MKI fighters of the 4+ generation

WS-10A has a quoted thrust of 132kN. AL-31F and AL-31FP only have 125kN according to
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, and these are the engines that power exported Flankers. Export Flankers are not using AL-31FM1. In other words, when comparing based on thrust alone, J-11B has more power than exported Flankers. Simple as that.

Your assertion that J-11B is less powerful than Flankers outside of China remains nothing more than a typical fairy tale, and is a result of your inability to accept the simple fact that China is about to exceed Russia in aerospace technologies.

It is true that AL-31FM1 will upgrade Su-27 in the Russian Air Force, resulting in Su-27SM. However, these aircraft have old air frame which does not use as much composite materials, thus heavier than J-11B. The same goes for Su-33 versus J-15 comparison, with the latter enjoys a lighter airframe with more composite materials. In other words, thrust-to-weight ratio of Su-27SM would still likely to be inferior to Chinese Flanker variants.
 

Engineer

Major
the engine is in production, however it seems russia won`t sell to China 3-4 117s or 1-4 Su-35.

After the J-11 debacle, Sukhoi, is only willing to make money, the reality is Russia has 4 engines of 14.5tonnes of thrust or more like 117 or type 30.

The reality is that China does not purchase Russian engines except for baseline AL-31F and AL31FN. For engines with higher thrust, China turns to WS-10A to power new build Flankers.

It should be noted why Russia is unwilling to sell China a few engines or Su-35. The reason we commonly hear is fear of reverse-engineering. However, reverse-engineering is as difficult as designing and building something from scratch, and is only possible because China's own aerospace technology matches that of Russia. In other words, Russia's fear illustrates its recognition of China's capabilities in the aerospace sector, contradicting your fairy tales that China is still reliant on Russia.
 

drunkmunky

Junior Member
Russia has a greater need for a revised air force when compared to China. Why do I say this? Russian defense forces substantially lack funding when compared to China. China has copycatted its way to improving and developing the airframe of the flanker. Comparing existing forces, Chinese Flankers are in much better condition than the existing stock of flankers that the Russian air force has, whether it is the 27,33, or the 35. The Russian air force however is following it's traditional mandate to develop fighter jets bread on the genes of power, where as the Chinese have taken a split approach, developing composites, advanced avionics, on par, if not more improved with China.

The nature of a copycat is that one day it's learned all that it has to learn from one person, and moves to the next. Even if the su-35 has improvements, it's clear that China is going in another direction. We Chinese are methodological, thoughtful and ingenious. We take what we want and we don't need to bother with the rest. It is this industrious nature that has led to the vast improvement of China over the past decade and a half.

I don't doubt that the revised FM1 is a great engine, at the same time I don't doubt that the WS-15 will be a great engine as well. I don't think that's the point.

Mig-29. Everything that you've mentioned on your posts, everything technical, i don't have a single doubt that you are incorrect. There is still a fundamental reality however, that China has moved beyond Russia as a technological reference, and it is now looking to copycat and duplicate US technology for military advancement.

Quite frankly, we've learned all we need to learn from you, to the point where we don't need anymore. Ever toss out a useless girlfriend?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Russia has a greater need for a revised air force when compared to China. Why do I say this? Russian defense forces substantially lack funding when compared to China. China has copycatted its way to improving and developing the airframe of the flanker. Comparing existing forces, Chinese Flankers are in much better condition than the existing stock of flankers that the Russian air force has, whether it is the 27,33, or the 35. The Russian air force however is following it's traditional mandate to develop fighter jets bread on the genes of power, where as the Chinese have taken a split approach, developing composites, advanced avionics, on par, if not more improved with China.

The nature of a copycat is that one day it's learned all that it has to learn from one person, and moves to the next. Even if the su-35 has improvements, it's clear that China is going in another direction. We Chinese are methodological, thoughtful and ingenious. We take what we want and we don't need to bother with the rest. It is this industrious nature that has led to the vast improvement of China over the past decade and a half.

I don't doubt that the revised FM1 is a great engine, at the same time I don't doubt that the WS-15 will be a great engine as well. I don't think that's the point.

Mig-29. Everything that you've mentioned on your posts, everything technical, i don't have a single doubt that you are incorrect. There is still a fundamental reality however, that China has moved beyond Russia as a technological reference, and it is now looking to copycat and duplicate US technology for military advancement.

Quite frankly, we've learned all we need to learn from you, to the point where we don't need anymore. Ever toss out a useless girlfriend?

I am not talking about what you think about Russia or China, first in the forum politics are forbiden.

Second Today`s Russian Flankers are not the 1990s fleet, in fact Russia has in 2012 <60 Su-27 with an engine more powerful than WS-10, the Al-31M1 and by december 31 2012 will have 60 Su-27SM, and 6 Su-35 and a few Su-30SM


reality WS-10 is less powerful than 117S or 117 or Al-31M1 or Al-31M2.


Russia is Flying T-50 with 117s in supercruise mode and has the 17500kg t-30 engine in test


and third you lack knowledge about Russia`s aviation efforts, simply because you focus on Chinese aviation.


read more about Russian flankers before make assertions, about me technical being wrong or right ask ITP or Salyut or Lockheed Martin, the rest up to you
 
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