China Flanker Thread II

[Engineer]

China may buy at least 48 S-35 jets By He Shan
4 Comment(s)Print E-mail China.org.cn, August 30, 2012 Adjust font size: China and Russia are negotiating contracts regarding the acquisition of Russian Su-35 fighter jets, according to deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of Russia Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, the Global Times reported Wednesday.

The contract mainly focuses on the number of jets that China can purchase, the nation would preferably acquire in between 48 and 50 of them, whereas Russian concerns lie more with the risk of leaked expertise secrets.

In the long run, Russia may resume its supply of air defense arms including that of S-400s to China. Moreover, China may also become the first overseas buyer of the Ilyushin Il-476, a multi-purpose four-engine strategic airlifter designed by the Ilyushin design bureau. If the two countries continue the terms and conditions in their contract of 34 Ilyushin Il-76s and four Ilyushin Il-78s, which was inked in 2005, the amount of money involved will reach billions of U.S. dollars.

Analysts believe that China's rise as a global power has provided Russia with new opportunitiesn the fields of military and political cooperation between the two countries.

Russia took up a second spot for world arms sales in 2011, according to the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT) think tank. The nation's annual arms exports doubled over the past six years, from US$6 billion in 2005 to over US$13 billion in 2011, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in July.

In 2011, Russia sold nearly US$2 billion worth of weapons to China, accounting for 15 percent of Russia's total arms exports.

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Repeating a fantasy will not make it true. China has already stated that they are not buying Su-35.

China refutes rumor on Su-35 purchase

"RusNEWS.CN reports (3-09-12 Beijing time): Reporter Alexi Yafmov reports: The Chinese Department of defence revealed to RusNews that reports by the Russian media regarding the signing of a 48 Su-35 fighter contract between China and Russia are inaccurate.

The Chinese Department of Defense clarified that : "In recent years, China maintained close strategic partnership with Russia and successfully cooperated in numerous domains. Sino-Russian military cooperation is an important part of Sino-Russian strategic partnership that is being carried out smoothly and has continuously yielded results. Reports that "China and Russia agreed on the purchase on 48 Su-35 fighters, however, have no factual basis.

On March 6th, Russian newspaper Kommersant quoted a Russian military insider when supposedly said that China and Russia agreed to sign a contract which will supply the Chinese military with 48 Su-35 fighters. The contract would have a net worth of 4.0 billion dollars."

Translation Courtesy of siegecrossbow.

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is the original link.

 

[AssassinsMace]

It's also a case where some people can only get their kicks by stirring the pot even though they know they'll be wrong in the end. Ironically they have the mentality of a terrorist. They like watching people's reaction from what they did because it gives them a sense of power.

 

[plawolf]

It's also a case where some people can only get their kicks by stirring the pot even though they know they'll be wrong in the end. Ironically they have the mentality of a terrorist. They like watching people's reaction from what they did because it gives them a sense of power.

Well, I think 'terrorist' is going a little too far, trolls would be more appropriate.

 

[MiG-29]

Well, I think 'terrorist' is going a little too far, trolls would be more appropriate.

haha i will put you in a simple way


Interfax reported in August 2012 Russia and China were negociating a Su-35 deal

In 30 August 2012 China org cn a Chinese site reports that Global times claimed Russia and China were negociationg the deal, the article is writen by He Shan (a chinese problably)


Here is your mentality problem in this forum, first is you have an agenda, however you are just simple forumites not policy makers or generals in China you simply are that, however since your theory that China has achieved industrial parity in engine design is at threat you are closed minded to see beyond your nose.


Second nobody says China and Russia are or are not in negociations



Because first i can guarantee you Russia is offering the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means.

If China has requested the Su-35 or not is a matter i do not know, but i am sure Russia is trying to sell Su-35 abroad and to China.

If by negociations the Russians mean China has rejected our offer and we are trying to entice them to buy it is a matter i do not know.

If they mean China has requested the Su-35 and we are negociating the deal is a matter i do not know.

I can asure you Russia has offered the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means, otherwise the Russian media would not make so much noise.


China and Russia have diplomatic and comercial relations, specially regarding military sales, they even make military exercises togather, to think Russia has not offered Su-35 to China, is even ilogic, at this point this is the most probable scenario.


if China has a 117 engine and Irbis radar equivalent, ready for production, the Russian offer will be rejected.

If China lacks an engine like 117 and the Russian ukranian reports are right, China has not achieved parity even against Al-31, then China will continue buying Russian engines.


China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

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of course time will tell, but at least now there is no visible evidence that China has a 117 engine ready for production or in flying conditions on any Su-27/J-11 and J-10.

The rest i leave it to your imagination and this this article
And then there's China not wanting, for a long time, to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, two years ago China announced that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. But last year China quietly ordered several hundred more Russian AL-31FNs. No more talk of using the WS-10A on a large scale.

Recently Chinese officials publicly made an issue of the Chinese company's inability to master the skills needed to manufacture turbine blades for high-performance jet engines. The reality is that the WS-10A has some serious, and unpredictable, reliability problems, which are becoming obvious. China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years, which implies that Chinese engine manufacturers still have a way to go. It may take longer.

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in the case of 117 Russia wants to sell it with Su-35s not just the engine



In an April 2011 interview, China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) head Lin Zuoming noted that despite China’s rapid development as an aerospace power, the country’s ability to produce modern jet engines remains a glaring weakness.[2] To address these shortcomings, AVIC is treating engine development as a high priority and plans to invest 10 billion RMB (US$1.53 billion) into jet engine research and development over the next 5 years.

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[rhino123]

Been reading many many thread and posts in the past few pages... it is all on whether China would buy the Su-35... well... irregardless of whether china issue an official denying of getting or was in negotiation with Russia for the Su-35 or not, it simply is not important. Su-35 is a good fighter despite the poor response internationally, might be of a number of reasons, such as the pricing, people wanted newer equipment, people doesn't need TVC for whatever reasons, there are better purchases such as the upcoming stealth aircraft and so doesn't need the Su-35 at the moment to fill in the gap, etc, etc. But to go into such lenght as saying a TVC is not useful is a far stretch though.

Second, I wouldn't trust He Shan too much, he/she is not the authority here and in China, he/she might just write out what can be found in the net.

All we can say is that whether will get the Su-35 or not, time will tell. Now can we please please please please get back to China's flankers development, instead of arguing over what interfax, he shan, or whoever reported, and if China deny the fact of negotiation, and if TVC is as good as it was advertised?

 

[Schumacher]

...............
Second nobody says China and Russia are or are not in negociations

Because first i can guarantee you Russia is offering the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means.

If China has requested the Su-35 or not is a matter i do not know, but i am sure Russia is trying to sell Su-35 abroad and to China.

If by negociations the Russians mean China has rejected our offer and we are trying to entice them to buy it is a matter i do not know.

If they mean China has requested the Su-35 and we are negociating the deal is a matter i do not know.

I can asure you Russia has offered the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means, otherwise the Russian media would not make so much noise.


China and Russia have diplomatic and comercial relations, specially regarding military sales, they even make military exercises togather, to think Russia has not offered Su-35 to China, is even ilogic, at this point this is the most probable scenario.


if China has a 117 engine and Irbis radar equivalent, ready for production, the Russian offer will be rejected.

If China lacks an engine like 117 and the Russian ukranian reports are right, China has not achieved parity even against Al-31, then China will continue buying Russian engines.


China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

...........................

Well, that's a whole lot of words saying not much. Of course Russia is offering Su35 to China, just as they are desperate to offer to anyone and everyone in the world. But no one is seriously considering it let alone buying it.
Su35 even lost to legacy F16 in Indonesia.
I'm sure if Sukhoi offers to sell say 5 Su35 to China for $10 a piece, China will be seriously tempted but they'll probably try to bargain to $8 first before signing anything.
I'm sure Russia never misses the chance to bring up Su35 in their various diplomatic contacts and China would just respond by making their $10 offer. In their desperation for recognition especially from China, Russian fanboys is confusing meaningless diplomatic niceties with serious negotiations.
Same thing with AL31, Russian fanboys are desperate for any indication Russia has not fallen behind China in defence tech.
AL31 are only for old Flankers and J10 which can only use AL31 without expensive modifications. AL31 have very short lives so PLA needs a lot for replacements and spares but good thing is they are also very cheap.
So AL31 order has little relation to the progress of WS10 which are used on PLA's new jets.

 

[Lion]

Agree. If china mod existing Su-27Sk/Su-30Mk/Mk2 to fit domestic engine, it might be costly.

As for J-10A, too bad shenyang liming (maker of domestc WS-10A) is under shenyang umbrella. They will sure screw chengdu rival of their J-10A.

 

[MiG-29]

Well, that's a whole lot of words saying not much. Of course Russia is offering Su35 to China, just as they are desperate to offer to anyone and everyone in the world. But no one is seriously considering it let alone buying it.
Su35 even lost to legacy F16 in Indonesia.
I'm sure if Sukhoi offers to sell say 5 Su35 to China for $10 a piece, China will be seriously tempted but they'll probably try to bargain to $8 first before signing anything.
I'm sure Russia never misses the chance to bring up Su35 in their various diplomatic contacts and China would just respond by making their $10 offer. In their desperation for recognition especially from China, Russian fanboys is confusing meaningless diplomatic niceties with serious negotiations.
Same thing with AL31, Russian fanboys are desperate for any indication Russia has not fallen behind China in defence tech.
AL31 are only for old Flankers and J10 which can only use AL31 without expensive modifications. AL31 have very short lives so PLA needs a lot for replacements and spares but good thing is they are also very cheap.
So AL31 order has little relation to the progress of WS10 which are used on PLA's new jets.

Look, to start, China still buys military equipment from Russia, China still buys Al-31s from Russia to power J-11/su-27s.


At this moment Russia has 2 powerplants that could fit the bill easily for export to China`s Flanker fleet.

28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

In fact see


The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

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Russia has the 117S and Al-31F M2 with 14500kg of power that will allow the Su-35s and even old Su-27s and new Su-34 enough power to increase performance.


So i will put it in few words unless China has an engine of that class, negociations must be happening and in fact most assertions that the J-11B will outpower other flankers outside of China is plainly irreal.

Russia today has 4 engines that surpass or at least yield 14500kg of thrust two can power Flankers and two the T-50.


What happens here is many can not admitt that Russia and China can still talk business due to fact Russia has achieve some technologies in engine design that could be exported to China.

 

[Engineer]

haha i will put you in a simple way


Interfax reported in August 2012 Russia and China were negociating a Su-35 deal

In 30 August 2012 China org cn a Chinese site reports that Global times claimed Russia and China were negociationg the deal, the article is writen by He Shan (a chinese problably)

LMAO! Allow me to put you into place with a simple fact: China's department of defense has already denied rumors of Su-35 purchase.

China refutes rumor on Su-35 purchase

"RusNEWS.CN reports (3-09-12 Beijing time): Reporter Alexi Yafmov reports: The Chinese Department of defence revealed to RusNews that reports by the Russian media regarding the signing of a 48 Su-35 fighter contract between China and Russia are inaccurate.

Here is your mentality problem in this forum, first is you have an agenda, however you are just simple forumites not policy makers or generals in China you simply are that, however since your theory that China has achieved industrial parity in engine design is at threat you are closed minded to see beyond your nose.

Actually, everyone except Russia military fanboys is seeing the reality clearly: not only has China achieved parity with Russia in engine design, but is about to exceed Russia on all fronts in the aerospace sector. This is illustrated by the innovations and technological advancements that China has put into J-20, while Russia made limited progress in the last twenty years and is still using concepts from the Soviet era on the T-50. Such is the reality, a reality which contradicts those fanboys' fantasy that Russia is still an aerospace giant like twenty years ago.

Second nobody says China and Russia are or are not in negociations



Because first i can guarantee you Russia is offering the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means.

If China has requested the Su-35 or not is a matter i do not know, but i am sure Russia is trying to sell Su-35 abroad and to China.

If by negociations the Russians mean China has rejected our offer and we are trying to entice them to buy it is a matter i do not know.

If they mean China has requested the Su-35 and we are negociating the deal is a matter i do not know.

I can asure you Russia has offered the Su-35 to China by diplomatic means, otherwise the Russian media would not make so much noise.

China and Russia have diplomatic and comercial relations, specially regarding military sales, they even make military exercises togather, to think Russia has not offered Su-35 to China, is even ilogic, at this point this is the most probable scenario.

Of course Russia is trying to sell Su-35, no one is denying that. However, no one, especially China is buying the Su-35. This aircraft has not made a single export so far, and is the reason why lies are constantly being made up about China being interested in the Su-35. The news articles you have quoted are just that -- nothing but lies generated in Russia.

if China has a 117 engine and Irbis radar equivalent, ready for production, the Russian offer will be rejected.

Wrong. If and only if Russia offer is accepted does it shows China has no 117 engine and Irbis radar equivalent. That has not happened, which shows China does not lack an equivalent of the above items. Indeed, China's WS-15 being in advanced development stage is a true F-119 class engine unlike the 117. China also has no need for the Irbis which is just a PESA radar, inferior to AESA radar that China can readily produce and currently flying on a J-10B.

If China lacks an engine like 117 and the Russian ukranian reports are right, China has not achieved parity even against Al-31, then China will continue buying Russian engines.

of course time will tell, but at least now there is no visible evidence that China has a 117 engine ready for production or in flying conditions on any Su-27/J-11 and J-10.

WS-10 is already an equivalent to AL-31 and already replaced the latter in powering the latest variants of J-11. It is well known that Russian engine has short lifespan, so the newly brought AL-31F and AL-31FN are for replacement of old engines. The newly brought AL-31FN also serve to sustain the current production of J-10A which is only designed for the AL-31 powerplant. These two reasons are verified in your

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, and I quote:

China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

Note the bold parts talked about replacements and for current production of J-10 fighters.

The rest i leave it to your imagination and this this article
And then there's China not wanting, for a long time, to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, two years ago China announced that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. But last year China quietly ordered several hundred more Russian AL-31FNs. No more talk of using the WS-10A on a large scale.

Recently Chinese officials publicly made an issue of the Chinese company's inability to master the skills needed to manufacture turbine blades for high-performance jet engines. The reality is that the WS-10A has some serious, and unpredictable, reliability problems, which are becoming obvious. China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years, which implies that Chinese engine manufacturers still have a way to go. It may take longer.

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The fact that WS-10 is being in serial production and used as the powerplant for J-11B and its derivative is a sign that the engine is being used on a large scale. In other words, the article you quoted is incorrect. The newly purchased of AL-31FNs will replace older engines due to short lifespan of Russia engines, and to sustain current production of J-10A fighter which requires AL-31FN engine. WS-10A will not see large scale production on J-10 as long as J-10B is still being flight tested.

in the case of 117 Russia wants to sell it with Su-35s not just the engine

Russia wants to sell Su-35 along with the engines, but China is not buying.

In an April 2011 interview, China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) head Lin Zuoming noted that despite China’s rapid development as an aerospace power, the country’s ability to produce modern jet engines remains a glaring weakness.[2] To address these shortcomings, AVIC is treating engine development as a high priority and plans to invest 10 billion RMB (US$1.53 billion) into jet engine research and development over the next 5 years.

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Realizing the country is still behind Western's engine technologies does not support your claim that China needs the 117 engine. Mind you, the 117 engine is not a Western product.

 

[Engineer]

Look, to start, China still buys military equipment from Russia, China still buys Al-31s from Russia to power J-11/su-27s.

At this moment Russia has 2 powerplants that could fit the bill easily for export to China`s Flanker fleet.

You need to get your facts right. China's Flanker variants currently in production no longer use AL-31 engines, but WS-10A engines. Given the amount of design changes required to make an aircraft takes on a different engine type, it is highly unlikely that AL-31 derivatives can be used on China's Flanker fleet ever again.

28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

In fact see


The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

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Russia has the 117S and Al-31F M2 with 14500kg of power that will allow the Su-35s and even old Su-27s and new Su-34 enough power to increase performance.


So i will put it in few words unless China has an engine of that class, negociations must be happening and in fact most assertions that the J-11B will outpower other flankers outside of China is plainly irreal.

Russia today has 4 engines that surpass or at least yield 14500kg of thrust two can power Flankers and two the T-50.

Actually, your assertion that J-11B cannot out power Flankers outside of China is the statement that is outside of reality here. WS-10A can generate a quoted thrust of 132kN, versus 123kN delivers by AL-31F and AL-31FP that are currently being used in Flanker fleets worldwide. Russia's Su-27SM uses AL-31FM1 but is heavier than J-11B for sure, so J-11B has a bit of advantage here. There is no doubt that J-11B has more power than Russia Su-27 that has not seen mid-life upgrade yet.

Unless China already made a deal to buy Su-35, there is no indication that China needs the aircraft or any of its subsystem.

What happens here is many can not admitt that Russia and China can still talk business due to fact Russia has achieve some technologies in engine design that could be exported to China.

On the contrary, what happens here is that certain individual is clinging on to the fantasy that China wants Su-35 when that is not the case. China currently designs and builds its own Flanker derivative, and no longer need a new variant from Russia; this is a fact.