China Flanker Thread II

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
You can actually blame price reasons. Simply said, the current F-15, despite being an aging air frame, is still a really damn good plane, and as such, doesn't really require, of all things, an engine upgrade, that would cost billions given the size of the fleet.

Guys, I have confined my comments primarily to the Flanker in general and the Chinese Flanker in particular, rather that be moderated, I would suggest that the aerodynamic components of this conversation be moved to the aerodynamics thread. But the assertion that the Eurofighter is superior to the F-22 is simply bunk, Dr. Song himself is highly complementary of the F-22 and stated that the TVC allowed for supersonic manuevering without increasing its RCS, to say that the US not retro-fitting TVC to the F-15, F-16, F-18, is proof that it doesn't work is also nonsense, and the guy who posted that is way to smart to believe that crap. To say the Chinese Flanker is superior to the Russian Flanker from which it is license built is also nonsense. The Chinese and the Russians continue to upgrade and tweek the Flanker airframe, it has proven itself robust and agile in all its iterations, even the Su-34 puts on quite an aerial display as illustrated at Maks 2011. As Deino has pointed out there is no reason to equip a strike fighter-bomber with TVC, but my own observation is that it is quite helpfull A2A IMHO? Sorry Deino, feel free to move any of this you need to?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Equation 6.29 shows that when C[SUB]L[/SUB] is zero (when no lift is created), the aircraft can still obtain normal acceleration. Essentially, this equation refers to VTOL capability on the Harrier, which is not applicable to aircraft with rear-end TVN such as the Su-35. Your argument is therefore invalid.

Figure 6.16 shows TVC is useless above corner speed due to load limit. Below the corner speed, post-stall maneuver starts to have significant hence you see that increase in ITR. The problem is that ITR disregards effects of energy lost and isn't sustainable, which is what made the F-22 lose to the Eurofighter and result in the situation described in
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.

read algebra linear it seems you flunk the subject

THEORY
6.3.1 MANEUVERING
An airplane inflight has a velocity vector which defines its speed and direction of
flight. The capacity to change this vector is called maneuverability




In maneuvering, the forces of lift, weight, thrust, and drag are altered to generate
linear or radial accelerations. The radial acceleration causes a turn in the horizontal, in the
vertical, or in an oblique plane. Forces which cause a radial acceleration include: weight,
sideforce, lift, and thrust ( although thrust is easily included in the lift and sideforce terms ).
later we talk



and learn a fact

Total lift is expressed as the sum of aerodynamic lift and thrust lift.
L = CLq S + TG sin αj




The only reason Europe has not fit the Eurofighter TVC nozzles is lack of money and political will

and a fact


SUSTAINED TURN PERFORMANCE
The concept of sustained maneuverability is used to describe the airplane’s ability to
maneuver at constant altitude without losing energy and without decelerating.


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Fig. 3.- Increased Sustained Turn Rate with TVNs

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Study hard my friend do not flunck once more physics and linear algebra
China has not TVC nozzles at least not operational to my knowledge and no J-11B with TVC nozzles at least publicly
 
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Engineer

Major
read algebra linear it seems you flunk the subject

THEORY
6.3.1 MANEUVERING
An airplane inflight has a velocity vector which defines its speed and direction of
flight. The capacity to change this vector is called maneuverability




In maneuvering, the forces of lift, weight, thrust, and drag are altered to generate
linear or radial accelerations. The radial acceleration causes a turn in the horizontal, in the
vertical, or in an oblique plane. Forces which cause a radial acceleration include: weight,
sideforce, lift, and thrust ( although thrust is easily included in the lift and sideforce terms ).
later we talk



and learn a fact

Total lift is expressed as the sum of aerodynamic lift and thrust lift.
L = CLq S + TG sin αj
I'm glad that you have finally taken my recommendation and look up terminologies that you do not understand. However, blindly copying definition of terminology does not make you an authority of the field. Rather, as you so desperately mine quotes to make it appears thrust vectoring enhances lift, you failed to realize the above equation has nothing to do with thrust vectoring. Variable αj in this particular equation is the alpha angle of the aircraft.

So, it seem that you have flunked Math and simple English, as evident by your misinterpretation of the meaning of "thrust lift". You need to go back to the basics as flight dynamics is a subject too complicate for you.


The only reason Europe has not fit the Eurofighter TVC nozzles is lack of money and political will
That is incorrect. If a military system has practical advantages, lack of money will not stop a country from acquiring it. For example, lack of money doesn't stop Britain from buying nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier. When a system has little practical advantages, countries will not invest their money, and this is the case with TVN. Europe's action is mirrored by that of US and China.

and a fact


SUSTAINED TURN PERFORMANCE
The concept of sustained maneuverability is used to describe the airplane’s ability to
maneuver at constant altitude without losing energy and without decelerating.
You are not telling me anything that I don't know already. To improve sustained turn performance, one could either increase T/W ratio or L/D ratio as according to the diagram below. T/W ratio can be increased by increasing engine thrust, or employing composite to reduce aircraft's weight. L/D ratio can be increased through redesigning the airframe.
AtRqD.gif


In fact, the above methods are employed by Sukhoi in the design of Su-35. This is a significant effort but necessary. TVC engines does not add lift, thus employing TVC does not bring about significant advantages. This is why Russia doesn't simply stick TVC engines into existing Su-27.

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Fig. 3.- Increased Sustained Turn Rate with TVNs

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It is noteworthy to point out that the paper was authored by ITP, the company which is desperately trying to sale its TVN. It is no-brainer why they would claim TVN offer such advantages. That is not to say they have not performed studies, but studies like the above always ignore disadvantages such as weight penalty. The situation has much similarities to the heyday of variable-geometry wing, where everyone concerns with the advantages and nobody considers the implication of adding such a wing. In the end, such design proved to be impractical and abandoned. However, the lack of interest shown by European countries shows that TV practical advantages.


Study hard my friend do not flunck once more physics and linear algebra

China has not TVC nozzles at least not operational to my knowledge and no J-11B with TVC nozzles at least publicly
That goes to show that China also realizes TVN offers no practical advantages. This is similar to how European countries do not
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Gents ... would You please continue this discussion in the already existing "aerodynamics-thread" ???

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/aerodynamics-thread-16-5907.html

It's sure a most intersting read for some members here with an interest related to propulsion, aerdynamics and structural issues ... but I highly question its interests (at least mine :() in members interested in "China Flanker" related news.

Thanks,
Deino

I will later clean that tread and move everthing "off topic" ino the tread mentionend above.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Gents ... would You please continue this discussion in the already existing "aerodynamics-thread" ???

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/aerodynamics-thread-16-5907.html

It's sure a most intersting read for some members here with an interest related to propulsion, aerdynamics and structural issues ... but I highly question its interests (at least mine :() in members interested in "China Flanker" related news.

Thanks,
Deino

I will later clean that tread and move everthing "off topic" ino the tread mentionend above.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
China may buy at least 48 S-35 jets By He Shan
4 Comment(s)Print E-mail China.org.cn, August 30, 2012 Adjust font size: China and Russia are negotiating contracts regarding the acquisition of Russian Su-35 fighter jets, according to deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of Russia Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, the Global Times reported Wednesday.

The contract mainly focuses on the number of jets that China can purchase, the nation would preferably acquire in between 48 and 50 of them, whereas Russian concerns lie more with the risk of leaked expertise secrets.

In the long run, Russia may resume its supply of air defense arms including that of S-400s to China. Moreover, China may also become the first overseas buyer of the Ilyushin Il-476, a multi-purpose four-engine strategic airlifter designed by the Ilyushin design bureau. If the two countries continue the terms and conditions in their contract of 34 Ilyushin Il-76s and four Ilyushin Il-78s, which was inked in 2005, the amount of money involved will reach billions of U.S. dollars.

Analysts believe that China's rise as a global power has provided Russia with new opportunitiesn the fields of military and political cooperation between the two countries.

Russia took up a second spot for world arms sales in 2011, according to the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT) think tank. The nation's annual arms exports doubled over the past six years, from US$6 billion in 2005 to over US$13 billion in 2011, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in July.

In 2011, Russia sold nearly US$2 billion worth of weapons to China, accounting for 15 percent of Russia's total arms exports.

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A.Man

Major
China may buy at least 48 S-35 jets By He Shan
4 Comment(s)Print E-mail China.org.cn, August 30, 2012 Adjust font size: China and Russia are negotiating contracts regarding the acquisition of Russian Su-35 fighter jets, according to deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of Russia Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, the Global Times reported Wednesday.

The contract mainly focuses on the number of jets that China can purchase, the nation would preferably acquire in between 48 and 50 of them, whereas Russian concerns lie more with the risk of leaked expertise secrets.

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September 1, 2012

At the end of last month (August 2012), there was not a single Su-35 sold to China.

Will China order Su-35's from Russia? The answer: BS Walking & Mig-29's fate away or lost in the air!
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
September 1, 2012

At the end of last month (August 2012), there was not a single Su-35 sold to China.

Will China order Su-35's from Russia? The answer: BS Walking & Mig-29's fate away or lost in the air!

To be more precise, not a single Su35 sold anywhere in the world including the most recent loss where even traditional Sukhoi user Indonesia chose legacy F16 over the super-duper Su35 with its magical TVC. :)
 

Lion

Senior Member
Shall we all take a few steps back and take the "Wait & See" approach regarding this claimed Su-35 deal?

No... Not even a fat chance. With PRC official spokesman already previously denied such rumour. There is not even 0.0001 percent chance any rumour is going to materialise. Probably Russian sell each Su-35 at $100 each then the probably PRC is going to get a few of it..
 
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