China demographics thread.

Eventine

Junior Member
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The later part of your post underlies the problem with blaming feminism for the decline in birth rates. Saudi Arabia, Iran and India are all not feminist countries yet have experienced a massive decline in birth rates.

On a similar note someone else mentioned a decline in marriage rates being a cause. Again countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran have very high rates of marriage. People in China, east Asia, the west (and much of the world) are still getting together, they are just not having children.

Btw, secular Israelis are not much more economically productive than the Haredi. The reason the whole country works is because of the massive amounts of aid they receive from America, the EU and the diaspora.
Birth rate decline is caused by cultural and economic factors both. The reason people had 5-6 children back in the day was both because of herd mentality - everybody else was doing it - and because in agricultural societies, children were an investment for the future. Now, economies are structured such that children are an expense. The two factors are mutually reinforcing; the more people believe that children are a drag on their modern life styles, the more they influence others to see it the same way.

To slow this decline in TFR requires that you make progress on both ends. Children must not be treated as an economic burden because they aren't - they are a necessary investment for the future of the nation, without which national extinction is just a matter of time. To this end, governments must address the economic root of the problem by investing in the nation's future and not just "paying people to have children" but actively making it so that children are the most reliable way to secure retirement.

At the same time, the culture must change, both extreme feminism and extreme materialism are aspects of the Western/East Asian "death" culture that should be discouraged or banned from Chinese social media. People who keep spreading the toxic idea that family and children are backwards/old fashioned should get canceled. Compared to the sort of **** that get people canceled in the West, there is much more justification in restricting people whose influence is actively sabotaging the Chinese nation. These are the minimum that must be done for China to have a chance in the future.
 

tankphobia

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I think it isn't simply religion that is causing a increase in birthrate, it's religious fundamentalism. Majority Catholic countries are experiencing a similar level of birthrate decline, the more extreme the religious belief, the higher the birth rate.

So people can clearly be brainwashed into seeing women as nothing more than kid making machines, while I don't want people to go into self extinction mode, reviving archaic belief systems is not really a path I want China to go down either.
 

A potato

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I think it isn't simply religion that is causing a increase in birthrate, it's religious fundamentalism. Majority Catholic countries are experiencing a similar level of birthrate decline, the more extreme the religious belief, the higher the birth rate.

So people can clearly be brainwashed into seeing women as nothing more than kid making machines, while I don't want people to go into self extinction mode, reviving archaic belief systems is not really a path I want China to go down either.
I mean Tibet has the highest birth rate in the entire country.
 

Dark Father

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100 South Koreans will only have 5 great grandchildren between them. This is what national extinction looks like.
Yoon is to busy sucking American dick to care about demographics but to be fair no country has a solution for this demographic nightmare that the neoliberal hyperurbanized hellhole has bought upon nations in the late 20th century and 21st century. Cities and modern consumerist economics are ultra fertility shredders.
 

Moonscape

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In terms of resolving the workforce issue, it's probably easier to figure out how to dramatically increase lifespans than to figure out how to get people in industrialized societies back up to replacement TFR. The former is a scientific problem that's not forbidden by physics, so it's possible. The latter involves convincing everyone to act against their subjective self interest, which is not possible on a large scale.
 

Michaelsinodef

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In terms of resolving the workforce issue, it's probably easier to figure out how to dramatically increase lifespans than to figure out how to get people in industrialized societies back up to replacement TFR. The former is a scientific problem that's not forbidden by physics, so it's possible. The latter involves convincing everyone to act against their subjective self interest, which is not possible on a large scale.
You make it so that it becomes in peoples self interest to have children, whether it's a variety of money policies to help with child rearing or more heavy handed by say extra taxes if one doesn't have children.

As well as changing culture to be more pro-natalist (having children) while banning stuff that is anti natalist.

All of the above isn't gonna be easy though, and will basically need decades.
 

Staedler

Junior Member
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The map I found on twitter posted by shanghai panda
View attachment 113943
Makes sense, the ultra-urban and relatively wealthy Jiangsu/Beijing as well as the Northern rust belt have the lowest fertility rates. They would also be relatively the least financially secure due to CoL for the former and lack of jobs for the latter. The poorest provinces with low migration outflows have the highest fertility rates.

The rust belt needs revitalization and ultra-urbanization needs to be actively combated.
 

Virtup

Junior Member
Registered Member
All this doom posting about Chinese civilisation going extinct and China losing is status as the factory of the world is unwarranted IMO, at least for now. While it might take a while for the goverment to figure out what to do and how to "tighten the noose", based on the pragmatic governance they demonstrated wrt other issues, they should be able to manage to raise TFR to where they keep up with the rest of the developed world, wich means probably 1.5, still bad but if the others are also bad, does it really matter?

This could probably.... maybe be achieved using a combination of awareness campaigns, banning opposing opinions, raising taxes for every child below a certain quota (gradually, so the rate per child of lacking 2 children is higher than for lacking 1 child, as an example), rewarding every child above said quota (careful not to turn into a welfare state though), massively raising retirement age or removing retirement completely (depends on how dire the situation is), waging war on ultra urbanisation (for example, less gigafactories in favor of smaller, more distributed ones+better infrastructure). If people start protesting, give them the xinjiang treatement (mass surveillance+ police). I know some of this sounds brutal, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. In the end, it's all about balancing these measures and turning them "on" and "off" depending on the situation (a complex problem with many variables, but that's what supercomputers are for).

All of the above plus better medical technology, robotics, more efficient processes, should keep China in the game for the foresseable future.

I am honestly less worried about Chinese civilisation going disappearing than the fact that humanity itself is going extinct because they can't figure out that men and women cannot (and will never) be equal. Women need to realise that their primary role is to give birth to children and, more importantly IMHO, educate them properly while men need to realise that their primary role is to provide their family (mainly children) with a comfortable life, even if it has to be at the expense of theirs (children need the constant presence of a mother and fother figure in their life, or you end up with a disfunctional society like the US, SK or JP). That's how we're biologically designed to operate, human rights need to be cast aside for now, because this is a case of "F**k you, obey the law of nature, or begone". There needs to be specialized classes for girls and boys in addition to the existing ones within a leaner less exhausting education system around the globe. Concepts like capitalism and communism need to be thrown to the garbage in favor of more pragmatic, efficient division of labor between men and women that allow them to perform their primary role without denying them from contributing to society and realizing their dreams, within reason (work from home could be a starting point), and unleash their maximum potential as human beings (so things like working in assembly lines are an absolute nope, since they're an extreme waste of human mental capacity).

I know all of this sounds VERY unrealistic, but humanity as whole still needs to mke a system close to it, or we'll have to revert to the old, proven, if horribly inefficient and stiffling one to avoid a worse fate (Just look at the prviously posted statistics and the trend they represent, they basically equate advancement with our current model to our doom).

WRT to previous suggestions about artificial wombs and raising children in goverment centers, that will thouroughly destroy any civilisation. As I said, children NEED the unconditional love and care given to them by their parents in their early childhood, or you'll end up like the US, where a significant part of the population has some kind of mental condition and behave in a very immature way, due to parents shirking their responsability, and have fallen into severe degeneracy, wich is usually what happens to nations before they disappear for good.

Sorry for the very long rant. What I've been reading in this thread is very unsettling to me, especially the global statistics presented in the last few pages, which tell us that we can't advance our technology without deleting ourselves. The whole situation is eerily similar to the "Great filter" theory.
 
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