China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
My personal guess is the following.

Since the 1980s and 1990s of intense Soviet and American BMD competition and nuclear treaties and BMD treaties, China was watching closely. All three of these players have been developing and firing BMD missiles since the 1970s at least for China, with the other two, possibly earlier. Chinese BMD and early warning programs go FAR back.

Since the 1980s they realised BMD is the real playing field and the two Cold War adversaries countered each other with placating treaties and formalities while rushing BMD development and manufacturing. They also both insisted on more warheads that can cover the planet's entire habitable areas. Why? It's not only due to foolishness and ego but there truly was a need in the era of very capable BMD. This has been the case since the 1980s and the Chinese have been watching very closely the Cold War dynamics and moves.

Since the 2000s where GBI and THAAD, SM-3 and PAC-3 and so on were proliferating and assumed as highly capable and accurate, China's own latest BMD programs were coming to service. Its first kinetic kill ASAT weapon was used more than a decade ago now. China has been practicing its latest BMD systems on hypersonic maneuverable vehicles. We're in a new era.

But BMD developments made the PLA aware of the need for increased ICBMs and warheads if we average each ICBM as carrying let's say 3 active warheads, PLA has known for over 40 years that the only sure way of countering proliferating and capable US BMD is by saturation and improved missiles. First part they need to build up more missiles to counter boost (if any) and mid course interceptors. So if the US have roughly 1000 interceptors positioned right around China's northern to southern directions, then China needs around 1000 ICBM ranged missiles as a minimum. That's 3x the no. of warheads so roughly 3000 warheads just for this task. The second part is developing much more advanced missiles and warheads and these eventually were revealed to be hypersonic vehicles using the Qian Xuesen type trajectories possibly with more complex flight patterns and shockwave riding air breathing or not. This is still a bare minimum to counter known minimum numbers of US interceptors.

Concurrent to this is a new and vast network of land, sea, and space based early warning with plenty of redundancy and of course various types of fire on command etc organisational and communication developments and how they are administered. The Chinese BMD is also up and running from the seldom talked about HQ and SC series we've only had hints of and tests of.


TLDR:

During the period between the 1980s and now, China knew it absolutely had to build up stockpile to the minimum 1000 warheads. Honestly the minimum is more like 1000 ICBMs and SLBMs but it's unknown if the CCP went to that secure an extent. They definitely have the desire now and doing it if it hasn't already been done. It also knew it had to field a considerable quantity of BMD interceptors which at the high end of threat can buy it time for retaliation strike or at the low end, neutralise North Korean or Indian missiles convincingly as a secondary function with the primary one being buying time to launch retaliation strikes where most of their arsenal could be protected for long enough to launch.

It did all this long ago while placating the US with "I only maintain about France and UK's stockpile numbers and have absolutely a no first use, minimum deterrence nuclear posture".

There is no way an equally big and much more promising and high potential economy with four times more people to defend and retaliate for in case, would ever allow their main adversary to be able to intercept their entire nuclear arsenal with just BMD on a single warship. This is impossible. It is also a cheap and easy matter, costing China less than 1% of GDP for every year for maybe just 10 years to build up to US levels. It's so bloody obvious it's a no brainer but liberal arts intellectual masturbators prefer complicating simple things with their desire for intellectual masturbation. The reality is so obvious, you can use logic only to determine China's true nuclear size to a decently accurate degree. This puts China's prior to more recent build up to around 1000 warheads with /3 no. of >DF-31A ranged missiles.

China's military strategy has always been deterrence first and then conventional build up. China has been building warships and aircraft at a rate that suggests all this extra conventional build up is left over from first meeting and exceeding "minimum nuclear deterrence". By logic we can and have ascertained to a decent accuracy that "minimum nuclear deterrence" for China since at least 2000s means able to deliver unacceptable levels of destruction on the US in case the US conducts a first strike which would disable a sizeable number of Chinese nuclear arsenal and then put roughly 1000 interceptors into the air in the Pacific for Canada/Arctic, and another 1000 at least around the continental USA then another 1000 at least of terminal phase interceptors.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
You are misconstruing two different numbers. This is the original source:

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And here is an accounting of number of stockpiled warheads by fiscal year:

View attachment 77938

As you can see by the asterisk at the bottom, this does not include warheads that are considered to be retired and awaiting dismantlement.

From the original source there are ~2,000 warheads in this category, so the US has a total of 5,750 strategic warheads (and none of these numbers include tactical nuclear warheads of which there are three types and number in the hundreds).

I believe that number of ~6,000-~7,000 is the one you were referring to. The US number of warheads has been decreasing very quickly, both operational and those awaiting retirement/dismantlement. The last few sources you've read may have been a few years old (the last time the US declared their stockpile numbers was 2017) so back then total + those awaiting dismantlement/retirement may have numbered closer to 7,000 than today's total of 5,750.

Again, these don't include tactical warheads, though these are all gravity bombs.
I'm going by what was being reported that both the Russians and the US have over 7000 nukes each.. Yeah the truth can be a whole lot different but the US likes to play with the truth like genocide is being committed against Muslims in China then the US asks China to take in thousands of Afghan refugees. Does the truth matter? Are they responsible with the truth? China can apply the same logic and say if the US over 7000 nukes as being reported by some sources then China deserves to have just as many. The US is probably in panic that if China seeks parity, they want to make sure China knows how many the US has and not to have more hence why they disclosed how many the US has be it the truth or not.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm going by what was being reported that both the Russians and the US have over 7000 nukes each.. Yeah the truth can be a whole lot different but the US likes to play with the truth like genocide is being committed against Muslims in China then the US asks China to take in thousands of Afghan refugees. Does the truth matter? Are they responsible with the truth? China can apply the same logic and say if the US over 7000 nukes as being reported by some sources then China deserves to have just as many. The US is probably in panic that if China seeks parity, they want to make sure China knows how many the US has and not to have more hence why they disclosed how many the US has be it the truth or not.

Don't need to tell me they're liars. They are naturals at it and they're intentions with China are out in the open at this point. They are speaking the 'quiet part' out loud more and more often.

I was just clarifying the misconception about their warheads. They never published that they have 7,000 operational stockpiled warheads (not since 2006 when they had almost 8,000). They have said they have 7,000 *total strategic warheads* (including those awaiting dismantlement and retirement) a few years ago, when they actually did have that many.

Now they have a total of 5,750 + some unknown number of tactical warheads numbering in the hundreds. Of the 5,750 roughly 2,000 are in the process of being retired which leaves 3,750 for immediate use. Of these 3,750 (again excluding non-strategic tactical warheads), roughly 1,700 or so are deployed. All four aforementioned numbers have been decreasing significantly for many decades.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Chinese missiles have the flexibility to shoot over Siberia and anywhere between Alaska and the eastern Canadian Arctic, which is not an interceptable trajectory. Even though it overflies Russia, it is still in boost phase over Russia thus it cannot be mistaken as a strike. Once it is over Russia the warheads split from the bus and are essentially invisible.

They do not have the capability to intercept.

Yes and the US I'm sure has interceptors and early warning placed in Canada and the Arctic.

They seem to think every single silo is empty. Ok.

This right here is the frustrating thing when dealing with the west. "They" are the common citizens fed absolute garbage and propaganda by their elites since the early 20th century. Manipulated every which way since then from every topic related to society and culture.

They think China has only 300 nukes because their elites want them to. Their elites however know China has probably several thousand warheads by now and a thousand or so ICBM ranged missiles. It is the minimum deterrence.

We can use facts and logic to deduce that China's minimum deterrence is truly around 1000 ICBMs and presumably 3x that in warheads of low MT yields or fewer of higher yields.

Their elites want them to think China is weak, incompetent, undeserving, inhuman, subhuman and so on. They mostly believe and accept all that due to said brainwashing for the last century at least combined with racist attitudes and so on.

This isn't just for Chinese nuclear arsenal it is for Chinese everything. Their elites do simultaneous fear mongering campgains on a country (China) that has no reason to invade or attack their way of life, the Chinese just want to gain their share of wealth and power which "they" already have. On this level the acceptance is partially due to human greed and selfishness as well as the other mentioned factors. Meanwhile they also create entire programs that diminish and belittle Chinese people and China itself. That is their MO for the last 40 years but been much more extreme in the last 10.

They can only do this because they cannot militarily or industrially defeat China any more without destroying themselves in the process and/or getting destroyed by China in retaliation. So they resort to those things. Similarly they've done asymmetric warfare on the Soviets. They belittled, dehumanised, undermined the Soviets in similar ways too. With China it's easier because the common people already have a racial difference and increased cultural differences and so a greater portion are only too happy to propagate that 1984 double speak and sinister methods western elites are simply the best at doing.

Again their elites and military leaders have long known China's nuclear and WMD arsenal is convincing enough to annihilate the US and western Europe in retaliation strike if they performed a first strike. It's the only reason they have not militarily engaged China.

The US has never thought twice before going to war with weaker opponents and never been diplomatic enough to engage in genuine diplomacy where they are not enforcing their will on the other through whatever mechanism of coercion or threat of violence they can deliver on.

If China's arsenal was truly only 300 warheads and about 100 ICBMs or less, the US would false flag something and justify nuclear war and perform first strike while a few Burkes can intercept all those 100 ICBMs and if some warheads make it through the net in the Pacific and Canada/Arctic, then their terminal phase PAC-3s and others can take care of the rest, just send one interceptor every few seconds and you are 99.999999999% going to intercept every warhead. If in case one somehow makes it through, it is one city in exchange for first strike. Their elites clearly want and "need" to do this while even at least 20% of their population consider it something they should do. Right now, I bet at least 20% of Americans hate China and Chinese people so much this is their desire. That's how effective their 40 year long hate campaign has achieved. I mean this 20% guess of mine is based on the fact that at least 20% of Americans show loyalty and support to extreme white nationalist groups and at least 50% are conservatives so it's a fair guess. Contrast this with China and ask how many Chinese people would consider it a good idea to perform first strike on the US, it would be close to 0 and even if they are told China has 4000 warheads to throw and nothing to risk, Chinese people I bet will be nowhere near as bloodthirsty and hateful.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Don't need to tell me they're liars. They are naturals at it and they're intentions with China are out in the open at this point. They are speaking the 'quiet part' out loud more and more often.

I was just clarifying the misconception about their warheads. They never published that they have 7,000 operational stockpiled warheads (not since 2006 when they had almost 8,000). They have said they have 7,000 *total strategic warheads* (including those awaiting dismantlement and retirement) a few years ago, when they actually did have that many.

Now they have a total of 5,750 + some unknown number of tactical warheads numbering in the hundreds. Of the 5,750 roughly 2,000 are in the process of being retired which leaves 3,750 for immediate use. Of these 3,750 (again excluding non-strategic tactical warheads), roughly 1,700 or so are deployed. All four aforementioned numbers have been decreasing significantly for many decades.
Yes and it's that misconception is what they're worried about which is why they're "disclosing" how many the US has. You'll have some sources up the numbers to scare adversaries and now they maybe low-balling the number because of how China can easily make more than reported.
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese missiles have the flexibility to shoot over Siberia and anywhere between Alaska and the eastern Canadian Arctic, which is not an interceptable trajectory. Even though it overflies Russia, it is still in boost phase over Russia thus it cannot be mistaken as a strike. Once it is over Russia the warheads split from the bus and are essentially invisible.

They do not have the capability to intercept.

China needs air-launched ballistic missiles and reliable bomb trucks like the Tu-95M, Tu-22M and Tu-160.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes and the US I'm sure has interceptors and early warning placed in Canada and the Arctic.
They don't have the interception capability and only have very limited numbers of radar.

1280px-PAVE_PAWS%26BMEWS.svg.png

They can't get Burkes up into the Arctic due to sea ice and Russian subs, and Burke's will need to be positioned very precisely. THAAD is only terminal interception and does not apply.

Doesn't mean take it lightly but realize that they aren't invincible by any means.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
@ougoah .... do you think China has enough Plutonium for 3,000 nukes?

I know FAS and all the intelligence people in the US have no idea if China has enough material for 1000 nukes or 100000 nukes. They have 0 clue. This is a fact. There is no way for them to determine China's true fissile material reserves in the ground even the Chinese themselves probably don't have a total number. I mean there is already no way they know China's true fissile material volume/mass dug up let alone what's available. We know China doesn't like using its own reserves just in case and has the money and reason to buy foreign just like with coal. China has about as much coal as Australia but prefers importing it from Indonesia, Mongolia, and to a much smaller extent Australia (previously making only about 3% of China's total coal import consumption and now less than 2%).

China could have enough material for 100,000 warheads for all we know. China has had the technology since the 1970s.

Even a few years ago, Chinese science institution circles have already been talking in relative public about new generation of nuclear weapons being phenomenally capable and part of the reason for the latest "delays" in new build up. Again "new build up" here refers to the absolute latest ones we're witnessing now rather than the pathetic idea of going from 300 to x. 300 to x would have been done decades ago. These new nuclear warhead designs were I think referred to on Chinese talks and rumours within those "in the know" as being third generation nuclear weapons if I recall. This was during a time with increased US China tensions while Chinese state run shows often discussed the question of nuclear deterrence and why China seemingly hasn't built up. One reason provided for the delay in build up (even though we know here the Chinese state itself doesn't talk about previous build ups during Cold War and the 2000s when DF-41 and JL-2 were going into service. The second reason was delivery system improvements, those we'd assume to be referring to hypersonic vehicles and range of new warhead vehicles or missiles and vehicles themselves.

The latest "wait" in building and deploying newer missile and nukes was to wait until HGVs and the new warheads designs were completed in full. That's my guess and suspicion.

Put it this way, the Chinese state and culture does not prepare after things they are always proactive in matters they predict and certainly in obvious matters such as BMD and nukes. They always prepare well in advance. Since they expected and knew about increased tensions and even witnessed gradual increased tensions despite no real change to China and it's postures except for the fact that China is progressing much faster than the western elites predicted. So how would the CCP think it's okay during the 1980s to 2010s that building up first and major line of deterrence and defence can be allowed to wait until tensions and threat of war is at its highest? They know it takes years to build up from 300 warheads to 3000 and this would be a fast pace, determined production. Truth is if I were to gamble, I'd say China's warhead count is probably between 1500 and 2500 right now and the latest build ups is really just the newly developed warhead designs and delivery systems. In total a very large fraction of US stockpile. China just doesn't do things that way. It prepares for the worst years or decades before the worst can even emerge as a shadow. It's not only Chinese culture and collective psychology to behave this way, in this case it's also bloody common sense and simple logic. Chinese are also extremely risk averse. Put it all together I honestly wouldn't be surprised if China's got roughly the same number of warheads as the US already. There was simply not a single good reason why China wouldn't and wouldn't have 10 years ago.
 

bustead

Junior Member
Registered Member
@ougoah .... do you think China has enough Plutonium for 3,000 nukes?
Not OP but China does have 1.8-2.9 tons of Pu-239. A thermonuclear nuclear weapon requires 1-3 kg of Pu-239 in its primary. Thus, China does have enough fissile material to build well over 1000 weapons.

Also, keep in mind that China has 18 tons of HEU, enough for at least another 1200 weapons. That's assuming China did not work on miniaturization and kept using Cold War era nuclear technology.
 
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