China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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AssassinsMace

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So I'm reading articles claiming China is aiming for nuclear parity with the US. The US says it has 3,750 nuclear warheads. Before this revelation the estimated numbers of the US nuclear arsenal was being reported double that. So either the US is lying about it so China has less nukes than the US or they really only have half of what sources were estimating and they were afraid China was going to end up having more than the US.
 

ougoah

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Nuclear stock estimation by Federation of American Scientist

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View attachment 77937

These are only confirmed missiles/launchers. Sort of like thinking PLAAF only has 30 J-20s because only 30 unique serials have been counted.

As said, 350 is the bottom minimum number of active warheads. 270 warhead count does not include DF-41, latest DF-5, or JL-3. 350 itself is a bare minimum and a totally impossible one.

For one thing we know there should be A LOT more than 10 DF-5A/B around. I mean there are nearly 200 known silo sites just for DF-5 missiles and entire networks of underground tunnels for the sole purpose of launching long range ICBMs. Even if constructed silos are only half used and ignoring tunnels and DF-31 and DF-41, that is nearly 500 warheads just in DF-5 missiles assuming 5 MIRV each.

China has paraded 16 DF-41 TELs in single parades. You don't let 16/18 of your DF-41 TELs join a parade along with allegedly half of your DF-5s. No country parades half their entire nuclear force's at least launch platforms in case they need to be used at moments notice. There is zero point in parading more than a tiny fraction of your forces. The number exceeding one is just for visual effect and only would be done if it is to make a statement. The statement with 16 DF-41 just for a parade is to say we have more than 160 (just an arbitrary example to make the point). You also don't make more TELs than you have DF-41s. The number is as close to if not 1:1 TEL to missile.

There should be some guesstimate minimum DF-41 in the multiple dozens, there should be at least 100 DF-5s (intended short term goal) just going by how many known silos there are and being constructed. Just those two missiles alone would account for about nearly 1000 warheads. Then there's the 10 other missile types from SRBM to IRBM and SLBM and many of them (even let's say 20% only) all require nuclear warheads. That's roughly another 1000 warheads if not much more.

It's not hard for China to build hundreds of long ranged ICBMs alone. This being done over 20 years is a trivial matter. This is the first and biggest line of defence. China cannot hope to talk to the US on an even power footing without at least 1000 nukes and yet Chinese politicians are 100% confident they are not only on an even footing, every Chinese action indicates they are sure they are on a superior footing than the US. Chinese side ignores the US and makes demands on the US in stark contrast to 5 or even 10 years ago... They also publicly tell the US that they know the US knows (lol) they are no longer a more powerful entity. That to me suggests they already know the American leaders understand the dynamic between the two is far from what is presented to the public. That being China has risen 20 years ago and it is only still carrying a low profile but it exceeds the US in many ways it cares to compare and they all know it. It is so convincing the Chinese side barely even bothers hiding it these days. This cannot even be considered unless China has a minimum ability for MAD and that minimum is at 1000 warheads with corresponding number of advanced missiles. Not 300. The US would have nuked China if China only has 300 warheads.

A single USN AB class can carry more SM-3 interceptors than supposed number of Chinese ICBMs. This should show us that Chinese nuclear reserves are in reality many, MANY fold larger than what is known and what is indicated by China itself over 30 years ago. Do you honestly think the CCP is okay for 30 years or more with the fact that a single Burke class can shoot down the entire Chinese nuclear arsenal? Or perhaps the US is treating China as an equal and the biggest threat because it cannot so easily counter it and because China's real nuclear arsenal size is far closer to being a third of the US rather than one tenth. Let's remind ourselves that China has in reality a larger real economy than the US and more than four times as many people, producing these missiles and warheads could easily be done to exceed both the US and Russia combined if the desire or need is there. China has no limit on nuclear material to more or less match the US. Just domestic reserves. No limit on enrichment technology since the 1970s either. Why on earth would China's leaders have been okay with 300 warheads?
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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US has around 1000 THAAD and GBI missiles at least. It also has 68 Burke class and 21 Ticos. That's 68 x 96 and 21 x 122 = 9090 available launch cells for SM-3 as a total unrealistic upper limit estimate of sea based mid course interceptors. Of course the number of SM-3 is reportedly around 400 but this is definitely a lower limit estimate or rather a bare minimum. Let's say the US has roughly 2000 capable interceptors for mid and terminal phase and has had this for several decades and these don't include PAC-3. Including those of homeland defence, that's many thousands of BMD missiles the US already has today and has had for decades.

Does anyone still honestly think China's arsenal is a mere 300 warheads which is roughly 60 to 80 long range ICBMs worth with zero for SRBM, MRBM, and IRBM? A single Burke class can carry more SM-3 than that and an equal (actually superior) economy is selling itself so short in defence? When the enemy not only has more than 10 times the nukes and more interceptor missiles than an equal and still nowhere near capacity economy with over four times the population? LOL. Does anyone know why Russia still insists on nuclear parity? They're not foolish, no that's not it. For every Chinese ICBM in these number estimates, the US can shoot more than 10 interceptors at each missile. Do you think the CCP was comfortable with this for at least 20 years? I'd suspect CCP would prefer at absolute max, one US interceptor per ballistic missile. Meanwhile China's own BMD build up would need to be as widespread and deep.

Think and use you brains. China's bare minimum for surviving the last 20 odd years from US first strike is only because it already had enough warheads to balance out US interceptors at least. Sure China has a lot of BMD as well and doesn't talk that much about it except report successful tests and interceptions against new vehicles like the HGV of recent years. They report it because the US already know about them since they can track the activity very easily as they have early warning positioned in Taiwan and Japan along with plenty more in the western pacific's surface.

So not only has China long had convincing (to US intelligence and state) numbers of warheads for at least the last decade of increasing tensions, it probably now has many times that number already, certainly it is building towards parity which is more easily achievable for China.

China has a greater workforce and industrial capacity for achieving this. It can afford it since both economies are roughly the same size. It needs it since it has to deal with the belligerent US (only the US would conceivably initiate conflict and go on the offensive since China has no point or benefit in initiating any form of military attack on the US, it would be suicidal and stupid). So we have motive, we have resources, we have ability. The cost is only a fraction of defence budget and not a cent spent on such a task would leak out of the economy. Hello?? Apply brain, conclusions obvious.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
These are only confirmed missiles/launchers. Sort of like thinking PLAAF only has 30 J-20s because only 30 unique serials have been counted.

As said, 350 is the bottom minimum number of active warheads. 270 warhead count does not include DF-41, latest DF-5, or JL-3. 350 itself is a bare minimum and a totally impossible one.

For one thing we know there should be A LOT more than 10 DF-5A/B around. I mean there are nearly 200 known silo sites just for DF-5 missiles and entire networks of underground tunnels for the sole purpose of launching long range ICBMs. Even if constructed silos are only half used and ignoring tunnels and DF-31 and DF-41, that is nearly 500 warheads just in DF-5 missiles assuming 5 MIRV each.

China has paraded 16 DF-41 TELs in single parades. You don't let 16/18 of your DF-41 TELs join a parade along with allegedly half of your DF-5s. No country parades half their entire nuclear force's at least launch platforms in case they need to be used at moments notice. There is zero point in parading more than a tiny fraction of your forces. The number exceeding one is just for visual effect and only would be done if it is to make a statement. The statement with 16 DF-41 just for a parade is to say we have more than 160 (just an arbitrary example to make the point). You also don't make more TELs than you have DF-41s. The number is as close to if not 1:1 TEL to missile.

There should be some guesstimate minimum DF-41 in the multiple dozens, there should be at least 100 DF-5s (intended short term goal) just going by how many known silos there are and being constructed. Just those two missiles alone would account for about nearly 1000 warheads. Then there's the 10 other missile types from SRBM to IRBM and SLBM and many of them (even let's say 20% only) all require nuclear warheads. That's roughly another 1000 warheads if not much more.

It's not hard for China to build hundreds of long ranged ICBMs alone. This being done over 20 years is a trivial matter. This is the first and biggest line of defence. China cannot hope to talk to the US on an even power footing without at least 1000 nukes and yet Chinese politicians are 100% confident they are not only on an even footing, every Chinese action indicates they are sure they are on a superior footing than the US. Chinese side ignores the US and makes demands on the US in stark contrast to 5 or even 10 years ago... They also publicly tell the US that they know the US knows (lol) they are no longer a more powerful entity. That to me suggests they already know the American leaders understand the dynamic between the two is far from what is presented to the public. That being China has risen 20 years ago and it is only still carrying a low profile but it exceeds the US in many ways it cares to compare and they all know it. It is so convincing the Chinese side barely even bothers hiding it these days. This cannot even be considered unless China has a minimum ability for MAD and that minimum is at 1000 warheads with corresponding number of advanced missiles. Not 300. The US would have nuked China if China only has 300 warheads.

A single USN AB class can carry more SM-3 interceptors than supposed number of Chinese ICBMs. This should show us that Chinese nuclear reserves are in reality many, MANY fold larger than what is known and what is indicated by China itself over 30 years ago. Do you honestly think the CCP is okay for 30 years or more with the fact that a single Burke class can shoot down the entire Chinese nuclear arsenal? Or perhaps the US is treating China as an equal and the biggest threat because it cannot so easily counter it and because China's real nuclear arsenal size is far closer to being a third of the US rather than one tenth. Let's remind ourselves that China has in reality a larger real economy than the US and more than four times as many people, producing these missiles and warheads could easily be done to exceed both the US and Russia combined if the desire or need is there. China has no limit on nuclear material to more or less match the US. Just domestic reserves. No limit on enrichment technology since the 1970s either. Why on earth would China's leaders have been okay with 300 warheads?

Chinese missiles have the flexibility to shoot over Siberia and anywhere between Alaska and the eastern Canadian Arctic, which is not an interceptable trajectory. Even though it overflies Russia, it is still in boost phase over Russia thus it cannot be mistaken as a strike. Once it is over Russia the warheads split from the bus and are essentially invisible.

They do not have the capability to intercept.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
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So I'm reading articles claiming China is aiming for nuclear parity with the US. The US says it has 3,750 nuclear warheads. Before this revelation the estimated numbers of the US nuclear arsenal was being reported double that. So either the US is lying about it so China has less nukes than the US or they really only have half of what sources were estimating and they were afraid China was going to end up having more than the US.

You are misconstruing two different numbers. This is the original source:

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And here is an accounting of number of stockpiled warheads by fiscal year:

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As you can see by the asterisk at the bottom, this does not include warheads that are considered to be retired and awaiting dismantlement.

From the original source there are ~2,000 warheads in this category, so the US has a total of 5,750 strategic warheads (and none of these numbers include tactical nuclear warheads of which there are three types and number in the hundreds).

I believe that number of ~6,000-~7,000 is the one you were referring to. The US number of warheads has been decreasing very quickly, both operational and those awaiting retirement/dismantlement. The last few sources you've read may have been a few years old (the last time the US declared their stockpile numbers was 2017) so back then total + those awaiting dismantlement/retirement may have numbered closer to 7,000 than today's total of 5,750.

Again, these don't include tactical warheads, though these are all gravity bombs.
 
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