China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I never said it was exact. A country that wants nuclear power plants that can't make them independently has to buy it from someone else and that country will likely be a signatory to a regulatory agency where they follow rules and one rule is they can't sell to another country that doesn't sign on and follow the rules. And like I said a country that can do things independently will be harder to track. Never said anything about they have the power to restrict how many nukes China can have.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I never said it was exact. A country that wants nuclear power plants that can't make them independently has to buy it from someone else and that country will likely be a signatory to a regulatory agency where they follow rules and one rule is they can't sell to another country that doesn't sign on and follow the rules. And like I said a country that can do things independently will be harder to track. Never said anything about they have the power to restrict how many nukes China can have.

Yes and so that is near irrelevant to the conversation of how many nukes China could have based on available fissile material that's either already refined or in the ground.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes and so that is near irrelevant to the conversation of how many nukes China could have based on available fissile material that's either already refined or in the ground.

It does when people are speculating the number of nukes China has based on how many silos China is constructing.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It does when people are speculating the number of nukes China has based on how many silos China is constructing.

And so it's more accurate to speculate on number of nukes based on civilian energy producing reactors?

China's nuke weapons material aren't sourced exclusively from civilian energy reactors. In fact I'd imagine it is rarely sourced this way.

I fail to see how you bringing up French reactor designs has any bearing whatsoever on nuclear weapons and their numbers. We already established and you agreed that international auditors do not have any idea and are unable to have any indication of how much uranium reserves are in the ground in China. We also agree that we don't know how many facilities China has refining material that is outside of the public's knowledge. So how is that conversation relevant?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
And so it's more accurate to speculate on number of nukes based on civilian energy producing reactors?

China's nuke weapons material aren't sourced exclusively from civilian energy reactors. In fact I'd imagine it is rarely sourced this way.

I fail to see how you bringing up French reactor designs has any bearing whatsoever on nuclear weapons and their numbers. We already established and you agreed that international auditors do not have any idea and are unable to have any indication of how much uranium reserves are in the ground in China. We also agree that we don't know how many facilities China has refining material that is outside of the public's knowledge. So how is that conversation relevant?
Didn't say that. I brought up French reactors because in order for China to be able to buy them, they would have to follow the rules and allow outside independent inspectors. What do they do exactly? I don't know but they can get an idea what China might have from that. And I did say at minimum not how many China has in total. Am I an expert? No. I just remember reading an article over a decade ago talking about how they figure some of this stuff out. The Iran deal that Trump canceled was suppose to allow inspectors in and when it was suspected they had an underground facility, they were supposed to be allowed in there if demanded.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I think "military engineering" probably related to fissile material production, not silo construction

It can be implied that silo construction is related to the fissile material production and by extension, nuclear warheads/delivery vehicle production. At the very least, those aren't going to be empty silos for very long.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Didn't say that. I brought up French reactors because in order for China to be able to buy them, they would have to follow the rules and allow outside independent inspectors. What do they do exactly? I don't know but they can get an idea what China might have from that. And I did say at minimum not how many China has in total. Am I an expert? No. I just remember reading an article over a decade ago talking about how they figure some of this stuff out. The Iran deal that Trump canceled was suppose to allow inspectors in and when it was suspected they had an underground facility, they were supposed to be allowed in there if demanded.

Right and my point is that China is well and truly above that and above that by quite far. It doesn't have the same issue of needing to show undisclosed facilities. Even Iran doesn't really need to. It doesn't show facilities it "does not have" ;)

With China, it's been able to refine material since the 1960s. This isn't new to China. It's probably got many facilities refining material. None of these facilities need to be reported or shown. There is no treaty or rule saying China must show others what nuclear processing facilities it has. It's the exact opposite of how this works. Secret nuclear facilities are just that, secret.

France does not inspect all of China's nuclear facilities. It just looks over the French reactor and the materials going and leaving it.

China has two of its own reactor designs, French ones, Russian ones, and an American one. It should also have plenty of facilities that are off the books, dedicated to refining weapons material. This is a given since this is how nuclear weapons are made.

Therefore no country is able to put together a good enough picture of how many kilograms of refined U or Pu China has and how many kilograms of raw ore it has in the ground. This means it is no more possible to figure out how many warheads China already has and can have than it would be for China to determine how many warheads the US can have. The possible range makes such a calculation near worthless.

China's reported count of around 300 warheads is based on what China said in the 1980s, extremely dated and unreliable information. It may serve as a minimum bound guess but the upper limit is impossible to determine with accuracy because China has its own nuclear reactors, has its own uranium ore reserves, has facilities refining material beyond the knowledge of outsiders, and no independent investigator has any right to check all of China's nuclear facilities and stockpiles any more than they have the right to demand China show them where secret facilities are.
 
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