China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Victor, this thread is about existing Chinese nuclear and ballistic missile systems...not about comparing the shape of a bullet to that of a missile.

Take such questions and discussions to the ask anything thread.

As a hint, consider the warheads of most missiles to the bullet.

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Broccoli

Senior Member
Is this new? It looks very grainy and old... Isn't DF-16 supposed to be the newest most accurate IRBM China has?

That pic is quite old. There is also official higher resolution pic of DF-16 being launched.

I'm sure you can find it from this thread.
 

nicky

Junior Member
DF-...?


JiuquanSpaceCentermobilemsl2014.1431337826.jpg
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Interesting article.
China now has dozens of nuclear-capable missiles that could target almost the entirety of the US, according to the Department of Defense's 2015
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on the Chinese military.

The annual report to Congress focuses on China's military modernization, possible invasion plans for the self-governing and US-allied island of Taiwan, advances in space technology, and Beijing's rapidly advancing missile capabilities.

China's conventional capabilities are improving. But Beijing also now has what could be considered the ultimate military asset for a rising superpower: the ability to deliver nuclear warheads nearly anywhere on earth (outside of South America, at least).

The following map from the report highlights the maximum missile ranges of China's medium and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). The longest-ranging of the missiles, the CSS-4, can target almost the entirety of the US (except for Florida).


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to the DoD report, and is housed in silos across the Chinese countryside. Beijing is estimated to have between 50 and 60 silo-based ICBMs.

The DF-31A has the second-longest range of any Chinese missile. It is capable of hitting the majority of the US' Pacific coast in addition to portions of the mid-West. Unlike the CSS-4, the DF-31A is a road-mobile missile. This means Beijing can move the ICBM to various points throughout the country to better target various locations and avoid possible incoming strikes.

The DF-31, the CSS-3, and the CSS-5 are all also road-mobile and nuclear-capable. But unlike the CSS-4 or the DF-31A, these missiles are intended for regional deterrence against neighboring powers like Russia and India.

Unlike the other land-based missiles on the chart, the JL-2 is a sea-based nuclear-capable ballistic missile.
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to the DoD, the JL-2 will be carried by China's future
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as a nuclear deterrent. So far China has commissioned four JIN-class submarines with a fifth one under construction. The Pentagon report expects the JIN to begin patrols in 2015.


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.

Likewise, India's own nuclear force has put pressure on China to continuously update and better its own capabilities.
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Broccoli

Senior Member
Not a surprise since DF-5 is powerful enough to carry at least three 450kg DF-31 warheads but i'd assume that four is most likely number.

Of course there is a possibility that they could arm DF-5B with that 250-300kt warhead used by DF-21. They could probably squeeze six of those on each DF-5B.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
df5-mirv5.jpg



The Pentagon’s annual
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on Chinese military power describes for the first time a Chinese nuclear missile with “multiple independently-targetable re-entry vehicles,” or MIRVs. For the uninitiated, that’s the ability to put multiple warheads on a single missile and deliver them separately against targets.

The Federation of American Scientists’ Hans Kristensen
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the passage in early May and, just last weekend, David Sanger and William J. Broad
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a piece in the New York Times that includes quotes by several experts, including yours truly. (I have written two books on China’s nuclear posture:
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in 2006 and
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in 2014. So I guess I should say something about what it means.)

There are two big questions being asked. Does this mean China is changing its nuclear posture? And is this a response to U.S. missile defense programs?

U.S. officials have long expected China to place multiple warheads on the DF-5. My best guess is that the decision to put multiple warheads is about replacing the vintage 1970s warhead on the DF-5 with something more contemporary. This decision was probably made a long time ago, and perhaps it has simply taken Beijing a while to get around to it.

Technical explanations can be a little boring — guess why people opt for the strategic ones? — but let me try. China has a fairly small arsenal of nuclear-armed ballistic weapons, involving two “series” of missiles: one liquid-fueled and solid-fueled. Starting in the early 1960s, China developed the Dongfeng (DF) series of liquid-fueled ballistic missiles — the DF-3, DF-3, DF-4, and DF-5. Liquid fuel is very energetic (which means the missile can fly really far) but it is also super corrosive, thus one can only fuel such a missile right before launch. The drawback is obvious: Imagine stopping to gas up your car while the United States Air Force is doing its utmost to kill you. (Note: All this is pretty simplified — if you really want painful detail, there is a chapter in Paper Tigers that deals with fascinating questions like: Why did China call two different missiles the DF-3? And why does the United States call the DF-3 the CSS-2?)

Starting in the mid-1980s, China began developing a series of solid-fueled missiles to replace the liquid-fueled ones — the DF-21, DF-31, DF-31A and, in due course, the DF-41. The upside to solid-fuel is that it’s more stable and manufactured into the missile, making it easily transportable. The downside is that the missile it is harder to make and the fuel isn’t as powerful.

China has still not completely replaced the first series of liquid-fueled missiles with the second series of solid-fueled ones. China’s liquid-fueled DF-5 is the only missile that can reach all of the United States — and it has 18 of these bad boys. It deployed most of the first batch in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and then replaced them with a more modern variant in the mid-2000s.

China has an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) in the second series, the DF-31A, that can reach targets across much of the United States, but I have some questions about just how much of the United States. Not surprisingly, China is developing something new: a missile designated the DF-41, which should remove any doubts about target coverage. The number of DF-31A missiles is small, too — not much more than 15
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to a recent assessment. If we add up the DF-4s and DF-31s that could threaten Alaska and Hawaii, that’s 50-60 ICBMs, each with one warhead.

At least that was the case.

Each of these missiles had only one warhead because China’s nuclear warheads were really, really big. Beijing developed the DF-5’s original warhead in the 1970s and 1980s, when China was impoverished. The warhead for the DF-31 was developed during the early 1990s and is lighter — an
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470 kilograms — but still big and heavy enough that the DF-31 and DF-31A could carry just one apiece.

The U.S. intelligence community has long asked what would happen if China put the smaller DF-31 warhead on the giant DF-5. Leaked U.S. estimates suggest that it could accommodate 3 or 4 such
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. So why hasn’t China put multiple warheads on the DF-5?

China would surely prefer to retire the older DF-5 warhead design in favor of a more modern design. And using the newer, smaller warhead leaves tons of room. Literally tons. The DF-5 has between 3,000 and 3,200 kilograms of “throw weight” (that’s how much stuff it can heave across the globe). Even if about half the payload goes to the post-boost vehicle, there’s enough oomph left over for three or four 500 kg warheads. What else would one do with all that space? Add some penetration aids (decoys and so forth) to defeat missile defenses? Sure, but that’s a couple hundred kilograms max. Fill it with ballast for stability? Or maybe those little balls from
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?

Here we come to an important observation about the risks of inferring intentions from capabilities. We act as if there is something morally compromised about placing multiple warheads on missiles. (Those sneaky Chinese!) Sorry, but there isn’t. The Russians do it. U.S. Strategic Command
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to keep doing it as late as 2007. And the United States and Russia, along with France and Britain, all have multiple warheads on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Yes, land-based MIRVs are an attractive target for a preemptive strike, which makes them destabilizing — but how destabilizing depends on the context. And at the moment, I have bigger worries about whether U.S. and Chinese nuclear forces will be stable in crisis.

Chinese officials don’t even use the phrase “minimum deterrence,” which American experts take to mean a small force that exists only to deter nuclear attacks. The Chinese
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“lean and effective.” That is a lot like minimum deterrence (and hey, I liked the phrase “minimum means of reprisal” so much I
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a book after it) but minimum deterrence is ourterm, not theirs. And it doesn’t make any sense to try to infer Chinese intentions using U.S. strategic concepts.

The right way to think about China’s nuclear posture is to imagine a hypothetical policymaker who places far less emphasis on the details than a hypothetical American one would. Remember that 1958 article by the nuclear strategist Albert Wohlstetter, “The Delicate Balance of Terror”? As far as I can tell, Chinese weaponeers and political leaders by and large don’t think the balance is delicate at all. We can argue about whether that was Maoism or bureaucratic prerogative, but there is no arguing that China’s nuclear force is small. (Well,
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no arguing.)

The Chinese nuclear posture, instead, has been driven by an enthusiasm for reaching technological milestones, not big deployments. American experts sometimes describe the missiles in China’s first series– the DF-2 through DF-5 — in terms of their range. China could first hit U.S. bases in the Philippines, then the Japanese island of Okinawa, then Guam, and so on. But that’s not how the Chinese describe these missiles. An official history of China’s missile program,
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, describes its missiles in terms of its technological accomplishment on the path toward the ultimate accomplishment — an ICBM. The DF-2 was the first indigenously produced missile, the DF-3 the first cluster of engines, the DF-4 the first use of missile stages (one engine stacked atop another), culminating in the 1980s in the DF-5 — a large, powerful ICBM.

Of course, it is possible the Chinese don’t know what it means any more than we do. It wouldn’t be the first time a nuclear power undertook an open-ended nuclear modernization without any clear sense of the final destination. If Chinese policymakers are unthinkingly ticking off technological achievements — just as we Americans unthinkingly chase new missile defense and conventional strike capabilities — then the two parties could stumble into an arms race without really choosing to do so. That seems like what we should be discussing.

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Ultra

Junior Member
Of course, it is possible the Chinese don’t know what it means any more than we do. It wouldn’t be the first time a nuclear power undertook an open-ended nuclear modernization without any clear sense of the final destination. If Chinese policymakers are unthinkingly ticking off technological achievements — just as we Americans unthinkingly chase new missile defense and conventional strike capabilities — then the two parties could stumble into an arms race without really choosing to do so. That seems like what we should be discussing.


It always seem bizzare to me that US think they can dictate to others what not to do. "I should have a machine gun with 5000 bullets but you can only have a pistol with 50 bullets. If you are going to get a machine gun or get more bullets it will piss me off and I warn you! I will really be pissed off! So let's sit down and talk while I go get a bullet shield and my machine guns."


Basically, to the american perspective - China is NOT allow to defend itself - developing nuclear weapons or ASAT or BMD makes american nervous, while all other states (like the other P5, or even newcomer to the nuke club) like India and Israel are allowed to pursue it however they want.


China is NOT ideologically against US, right now they are pursuing the "american dream with chinese characteristics" - house (or apartment), cars, TVs, stable income, good income, food and safety. I think failing and spiraling of current situation is due to the American continuous distrust of China, and their sense of entitlement that they can continue to encroach and contain China. China is a lot like a teenager growing up, with a traumatized past. American should give them more respect, and more space. By not trusting them and threatening them it only made them become more rebellious, aggressive, and unpredicable.
 
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