China and the development of firearms

yehe · Mar 17, 2010

maozedong said:
reply to some one, if you dont like,please accept my apology.
I said that neo confucianism from Song dynasty. Han wudi just started, and I also said its hamful,it will be far-reaching.that means,gradually increased over time, the impact until it evolved into Neo-Confucianism.I already say so many times.
At the same time, its degree of distortion, and the decline of feudal society in China, is directly proportional.
In fact, since the demise of the lessons of the Ming dynasty, the Qing made many reforms, some of the reform's court within, but the most significant is that it has carried out land reform.
I agree you said,some respects, it is even worse.
with regard to the Mongols, we must both see them, they bring the war and caused damage,slaughter,looting,but can not say that they would destroy the science and technology, nomadic freedom-loving, open, willing to accept new things, they don't have so many Han's weird customs of the feudal shackles.Kublai Khan is an enlightened emperor, he studied Han Chinese management practices.
Yuan Dynasty operas, novels, was at that time began. such as Outlaws of the Marsh,水浒传 the other dynasty is prohibited.
we should understand that China since ancient times often have war, every war, have caused damage.
I know at that time the Grand Duchy of Moscow, was Russian name, but I called it Russian, what is the problem then? in fact, it should be referred to as a Khanate.
With regard to the Song dynasty, I know that Song dynasty continues to be defeated, the country annually to the Liao, Western Xia contribute a large number of silver,the emperor is still a large-scale construction of the palace, which is truly exploiting the people, forced people to delivery of a large number of Taihu Dan,花石岗The people of extreme poverty, can not survive as a result, a large-scale peasant uprising broke out, historically known as the Fang La 方腊 uprising,the results were Jin occupied the north China,Song retreated south of the Yangtze River, the emperor continued to Hangzhou pleasures, living the life of shameless debauchery,they had to contribute to Jin every year a large number of silver, the treasury empty, and the people in very poverty.Song countless a traitor, the ruling class of serious corruption.
I really don't know what wer the Song rulers capable of mass production?

ff

Some of what you said I agree, some of it I dont, anyway, the much hated tribute to Jin dynasty hade its reasons, as I said before, its lack of trust of military commanders as the first song emperor was a general that did a coup, the military structure that disallowed personal/family loyal militia, persistent lack of calvarys caused the Song militarily weak, yet the fact is also that Song was a extremely rich dynasty, Southern Song especially, to most part, it could simply afford the tribute, to buy peace.

Also as I said before, a foreign ruled(by military conquest, fear and brutality) society tenders to be far more conservative, this will have a huge impact on science and social developement, this is what I am talking about of the mongols been the reason of China started to lag behind after that, not to speak of the fact that the mongols invasion directly and indirectly caused a population decrease to only about 30% of what it once was, so it wasnt just damage, it was a CATASTROPHIC nightmare!

solarz · Mar 17, 2010

yehe said:
You are just missguided by the official historical view of Song, absolutely nothing new in what you have said, it wasnt anymore corrupt than any other dynasties, only problem of Song was the military structure, where the court and offcials never really trusted any generals and military commanders, also was the problem of song hade virtuely no where they can breed horses, and ancient calvary are the tank of modern days, you simply cant mount a counter attack vs the mongols without the calvarys.
And where did you got the ide of Song was incompetent?

How about all the history books? Seriously, if you're going to claim something that goes against established thought, you need to back that up with some kind of source.

It was by far the richest, most populous and technologically most advanced nation on earth at the time,
So claiming that it was the Mongol invasion that destroyed a nascent Chinese industrialization are completely right, without a doubt it was the main reason.

Richest? Sure. Incompetent? That too. The two aren't mutually exclusive. In addition, if you're going to claim that Southern Song had a nascent industrialization going on, we'll need to see some sources.

About open society, well there is still NO completely open society in the world till today, so what? I am talking about a relatively far more open society than any and all dynasties after it, a point you simply refuse to see?
So what if it was still a feudal society? Nobody claimed it wasnt, Industrialization in Europe was also developed out of a feudal society, there is no conflict in what I have claimed.

And? Did ever said anything about Europe Dark Ages was an "open society"?
Ofc it wasnt, thats why it was lagged behind at least 100 years in every aspect compared with china at that time.

You don't see the irony in this? You're claiming that Southern Song was a more open society because noble houses could counter the emperor's powers. Don't you realize that that's exactly the kind of society medieval Europe had?

Nobody would claim Europe was an "open society" because of that aspect.

yehe · Mar 17, 2010

solarz said:
How about all the history books? Seriously, if you're going to claim something that goes against established thought, you need to back that up with some kind of source.

Richest? Sure. Incompetent? That too. The two aren't mutually exclusive. In addition, if you're going to claim that Southern Song had a nascent industrialization going on, we'll need to see some sources.

You don't see the irony in this? You're claiming that Southern Song was a more open society because noble houses could counter the emperor's powers. Don't you realize that that's exactly the kind of society medieval Europe had?

Nobody would claim Europe was an "open society" because of that aspect.

Those history books are all written by late comers, while chinese history records are especially used to blame the goverment for all kind of failuire including even natural disasters, while have little other aspect in mind, they simple claim it was the incompetence of the imperial official and court, without describing any other reason. Not to speak of all the historical books are officially written by the later dynasties that over took them, hardly any good words would be reserved for them. You can read the history books, but if you cant do any kind of independent thinking on the fact/stories written on the books you would hardly be able to understand what actually happened, this is call read and learn without ever using a brain.
By claim thier previously defeated dynasties to be incompetent and corrupt are the simpleist thing to do, but can hardly be the entire truth.

During Song they already have large factory like workshops, whether this would have developed into full industrialization is of course open to debate, but the mongol invasion undoubtly destroyed any chance of that happening.

And about europe and Song having powerful noble families, you always miss the point and go question something else, as I have said, RELATIVELY, nothing is either black or white, relatively you need more open societies than those of later dynasties in china after the Song to achieve the enviroment of where science can thrive.
Besides, the catholic church was the real power not the kings, they are hardly able to be counted by any noble families or even royal families in european medieval, and was the main reason of why the medieval are so dark. The church hade more absolute power than a chinese emperor at song dynasty, thats the point.

solarz · Mar 18, 2010

yehe said:
Those history books are all written by late comers, while chinese history records are especially used to blame the goverment for all kind of failuire including even natural disasters, while have little other aspect in mind, they simple claim it was the incompetence of the imperial official and court, without describing any other reason. Not to speak of all the historical books are officially written by the later dynasties that over took them, hardly any good words would be reserved for them. You can read the history books, but if you cant do any kind of independent thinking on the fact/stories written on the books you would hardly be able to understand what actually happened, this is call read and learn without ever using a brain.
By claim thier previously defeated dynasties to be incompetent and corrupt are the simpleist thing to do, but can hardly be the entire truth.

Like I said, back up your claims with sources.

During Song they already have large factory like workshops, whether this would have developed into full industrialization is of course open to debate, but the mongol invasion undoubtly destroyed any chance of that happening.

Source please. Are you saying neither the Ming nor the Qing had such workshops?

And about europe and Song having powerful noble families, you always miss the point and go question something else, as I have said, RELATIVELY, nothing is either black or white, relatively you need more open societies than those of later dynasties in china after the Song to achieve the enviroment of where science can thrive.
Besides, the catholic church was the real power not the kings, they are hardly able to be counted by any noble families or even royal families in european medieval, and was the main reason of why the medieval are so dark. The church hade more absolute power than a chinese emperor at song dynasty, thats the point.

Ummm, no, you're the one missing the point. In a feudal society, whether the power is centralized, or distributed across the nobility, has no bearing on the "openess" of that society!

The catholic church had power, yes, but hardly in the same way as Chinese Emperors. Local lords and Kings still held much of the day-to-day power over their lands. While it is true that the Church contributed much to the "darkness" of the Dark Ages, that's not because it had a centralized power, but rather because of the way it wielded that power.

Likewise, Song isn't a more open society than Ming or Qing because whether the power lies in the Emperor or in the Nobles, they still wielded it in the same feudal way.

yehe · Mar 18, 2010

solarz said:
Like I said, back up your claims with sources.

Source please. Are you saying neither the Ming nor the Qing had such workshops?

Likewise, Song isn't a more open society than Ming or Qing because whether the power lies in the Emperor or in the Nobles, they still wielded it in the same feudal way.

Are you even watching my post? Or you just choose to ignore the "relatively" word I said?

And pls, source for what? That the history books are mostly written in the way I said in earlier post in china? Not my problem that you cant read and also think at the same time. I read enough of history books to know it cant be fully trusted, I suggest you go read more as I did in this matter.

solarz said:
In a feudal society, whether the power is centralized, or distributed across the nobility, has no bearing on the "openess" of that society!

Are you kidding me?

solarz said:
The catholic church had power, yes, but hardly in the same way as Chinese Emperors. Local lords and Kings still held much of the day-to-day power over their lands. While it is true that the Church contributed much to the "darkness" of the Dark Ages, that's not because it had a centralized power, but rather because of the way it wielded that power.!

We are talking about the scientific developement not the day-to-day tax collecting power here are we? When the church claim the earth is flat and you go claim the earth is round, the result is? The social, mental power the church have was by FAR greater than the chinese emperor， I dont know if you understand what the difference are between centralized power and absolute power, cuz I never talking about centralized power.

Likewise, Song IS a more open society than Ming or Qing because the power that the Emperor held was less absolute, doesnt matter if they still wielded it in the same feudal way or not.[/

rhino123 · Mar 18, 2010

One fair word to put in. Of course the collapse of a dynasty was not just due to mere corruption and incompetence of the government. But it actually contribute in a vast part to the collapse of the dynasty or empire or country or whatever you want to call it.

There are huge number of factors involved, factors that we might not see in history books, unless someone went deep into research, there are bound have some information out there.

What I can think of is:

1) Corruption and incompetence of the government
2) External Factors, like stronger and/or more aggressive neighbours or external forces
3) Natural disasters
4) civil war and revolution (which not necessary mean the current government are useless).
5) Peaceful evolution (not that there are many example, but we cannot deny its existence, can we?)

Of course there are other factors, and I believe these are factors that actually lead to downfall of some of the dynasties even in China.

maozedong · Mar 18, 2010

yehe said:
Some of what you said I agree, some of it I dont, anyway, the much hated tribute to Jin dynasty hade its reasons, as I said before, its lack of trust of military commanders as the first song emperor was a general that did a coup, the military structure that disallowed personal/family loyal militia, persistent lack of calvarys caused the Song militarily weak, yet the fact is also that Song was a extremely rich dynasty, Southern Song especially, to most part, it could simply afford the tribute, to buy peace.

Also as I said before, a foreign ruled(by military conquest, fear and brutality) society tenders to be far more conservative, this will have a huge impact on science and social developement, this is what I am talking about of the mongols been the reason of China started to lag behind after that, not to speak of the fact that the mongols invasion directly and indirectly caused a population decrease to only about 30% of what it once was, so it wasnt just damage, it was a CATASTROPHIC nightmare!

Mongolians does not exclude the science and technology, they learn from China's military technology, the use of these technologies to attack Europe.
Gunpowder reached Europe by the Mongols.
Yuan is not a closed society.China lags behind the West, starting from the Ming Dynasty.

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about West,14-century Renaissance, the 15- century nautical campaign created the modern science, the religion reformation, the Enlightenment of reason and science to increase awareness, also greatly enhance the promotion of scientific and technological development of such a good atmosphere, and several scientific and technological revolution is even more brilliant in the history of science and technology, Western capitalism began to develop.

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solarz · Mar 18, 2010

yehe said:
Are you even watching my post? Or you just choose to ignore the "relatively" word I said?

And pls, source for what? That the history books are mostly written in the way I said in earlier post in china? Not my problem that you cant read and also think at the same time. I read enough of history books to know it cant be fully trusted, I suggest you go read more as I did in this matter.

So in other words, you are just putting up your *interpretation* of historical facts, and trying to pass them off as "The Truth".

Are you kidding me?

We are talking about the scientific developement not the day-to-day tax collecting power here are we? When the church claim the earth is flat and you go claim the earth is round, the result is? The social, mental power the church have was by FAR greater than the chinese emperor， I dont know if you understand what the difference are between centralized power and absolute power, cuz I never talking about centralized power.

Likewise, Song IS a more open society than Ming or Qing because the power that the Emperor held was less absolute, doesnt matter if they still wielded it in the same feudal way or not.[/

Yes, because we all know how Song society, unlike Ming or Qing, didn't have foot-binding, polygamy, gender inequality, or the systematic repression of thoughts that ran against the confucian ideals.

Just exactly *what* is your definition of an "open society" anyway? How is Song any different from Ming or Qing with respect to your definition?

jeanlee411 · May 6, 2010

Chinese gunpowder weapons in the Song were leading,the Ming Dynasty were more widely used, due to geography, history, culture and political system of other reasons, Chinese gunpowder weapons to a standstill.
The late Ming Dynasty, the Chinese gunpowder weapons had behind the West, the West had created powerful cannon, the Ming Dynasty bought a batch of cannons from the Portuguese in Macao, these cannons deployed at Shanhaiguan. Ming Dynasty the generals Yuan Chonghuan in Shanhaiguan resistance Manchu army attack,He commanded the soldiers to use cannons counterattack, Manchu Emperor Nurhachi was killed by cannon.
This is called Hong Yi cannons.红夷大炮.
the Qing Dynasty, Chinese gunpowder weapons were even more behind.'

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rhino123 · May 7, 2010

From what I can see... when the Song Dynasty used firearms, this piece of equipment is among the most advance in the world... and there simply is no need to actually advance it further, because it is already leading the world... during the Ming and later Qing dynasty, huge number of canons are imported from places like Holland, Portugese etc. The Chinese only manufactured copies of these canons and never really place much emphasis in research and development of these firearms. Thus two hundred years of Qing rules... not much had been done to the canon design and manufacturing process.

This is the main reason why firearms began lacking behind as compare to the west.

China and the development of firearms

yehe

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solarz

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yehe

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solarz

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yehe

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rhino123

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maozedong

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solarz

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