China and the development of firearms

solarz said:

Yes, that is true, but why? What kind of thinking led medieval China to eschew technology and focus on human factors (battle formation, tactics, and strategies)?

Click to expand...

Chinese history and culture, the Emperor Han Wudy began advocating Confucian thoughts, exclusion of other ideas, which is very harmful,for the intellectuals,their future, only need to read the books of Confucius, as science and technology,there is no way out.since then, the intellectual emphasis on language art, neglect science and technology,
Confucianism, the Song dynasty, evolved into Neo-Confucianism, and intellectuals to become slaves.
China "5.4" campaign to promote science and democracy, asking to overthrow Confucianism, the Chinese had a profound impact.
Geographical context, the ancient Chinese foreign relations difficulties,the ancient Chinese people think that China is all the world,the so called " centrol kingdom". the Silk Road becaurse the Han and the Tang government's great efforts to promote.the Silk Road from the sea also not so easy.
Ming Dynasty and Qing Dynasty, the feudal rulers were very closed, they are afraid of foreign cultures and ideas, and even banned the people for the sea.
of course, the Emperor Ming Chengzu is an exception,He was a strong confidence in the Ming Dynasty,after his death, China has closed, while Western countries have started the industrial revolution.

There is only one record of an ancient times Chinese general who extensively cannon to defeat its enemy..

It is noted that Yuan was said to have studied every aspect of the cannon for it to fire correctly at the position he wanted, and this is the reason why Nurhaci, even though well protected by his elite guards in a relatively safe position, was wounded. This battle was remembered as the Battle of Ningyuan.

Click to expand...

maozedong said:

Chinese history and culture, the Emperor Han Wudy began advocating Confucian thoughts, exclusion of other ideas, which is very harmful,for the intellectuals,their future, only need to read the books of Confucius, as science and technology,there is no way out.since then, the intellectual emphasis on language art, neglect science and technology,
Confucianism, the Song dynasty, evolved into Neo-Confucianism, and intellectuals to become slaves.
China "5.4" campaign to promote science and democracy, asking to overthrow Confucianism, the Chinese had a profound impact.
Geographical context, the ancient Chinese foreign relations difficulties,the ancient Chinese people think that China is all the world,the so called " centrol kingdom". the Silk Road becaurse the Han and the Tang government's great efforts to promote.the Silk Road from the sea also not so easy.
Ming Dynasty and Qing Dynasty, the feudal rulers were very closed, they are afraid of foreign cultures and ideas, and even banned the people for the sea.
of course, the Emperor Ming Chengzu is an exception,He was a strong confidence in the Ming Dynasty,after his death, China has closed, while Western countries have started the industrial revolution.

Click to expand...

Nah, that's not the reason, it doesnt explain how the Song dynasty was by far the most technological superior nation on the face of the planet at that period of time, at least 100years ahead of the europeans at then in terms of technological level.

I'd say the Mongol invasion and then later the strict rule first by the mongols and then by the manchus was the absolute main reason of science and technologies was pressed down after song dynasty's demise.
After all for the Yuan and Qing court the most important thing was to maintain the han population and not to develop anything new and potentially dangerous things.


Anyway, fire arms were used extensively already during Southern Song dynasty, even more at the Ming dynasty, thus why you don't see the Qing dynasty soldiers ever wared armor.

yehe said:

Nah, that's not the reason, it doesnt explain how the Song dynasty was by far the most technological superior nation on the face of the planet at that period of time, at least 100years ahead of the europeans at then in terms of technological level.

I'd say the Mongol invasion and then later the strict rule first by the mongols and then by the manchus was the absolute main reason of science and technologies was pressed down after song dynasty's demise.
After all for the Yuan and Qing court the most important thing was to maintain the han population and not to develop anything new and potentially dangerous things.


Anyway, fire arms were used extensively already during Southern Song dynasty, even more at the Ming dynasty, thus why you don't see the Qing dynasty soldiers ever wared armor.

Click to expand...

Did you see my last post and I provided the links? please add up them together to understand my oppinion.
also, your oppinion is not comprehensive, you only see one side of the reeson, you didn't see nature of the matter. both you and me need more article to talk about this, a long article. I would not do that, I may not need you agree my oppinion, you also keep your oppinion.

yehe said:

Nah, that's not the reason, it doesnt explain how the Song dynasty was by far the most technological superior nation on the face of the planet at that period of time, at least 100years ahead of the europeans at then in terms of technological level.

I'd say the Mongol invasion and then later the strict rule first by the mongols and then by the manchus was the absolute main reason of science and technologies was pressed down after song dynasty's demise.
After all for the Yuan and Qing court the most important thing was to maintain the han population and not to develop anything new and potentially dangerous things.

Anyway, fire arms were used extensively already during Southern Song dynasty, even more at the Ming dynasty, thus why you don't see the Qing dynasty soldiers ever wared armor.

Click to expand...

Say what? Where do you get your info anyway?

The reason Qing soldiers don't wear armor is the same reason that European conscripts don't wear armor: armor is expensive, and reserved for commanders and lords.

The Qing military also relied extensively on Han troops. If they trusted Han soldiers, even in battles against other Han armies (such as Wu Sangui and the Taiwan Zheng family), why wouldn't they trust Han inventors to make new weapons that the Qing themselves can use? Controlling military technology is not exactly that difficult.

I think I should make some explanation:

Nah, that's not the reason, it doesnt explain how the Song dynasty was by far the most technological superior nation on the face of the planet at that period of time, at least 100years ahead of the europeans at then in terms of technological level.

Click to expand...

Song of gunpowder weapons, is actually a start, is very backward, but earlier development than the West, which, like gunpowder, is the invention of the working people, intellectuals did not participate because they do not attach importance to science and technology, not pushing forward gunpowder weapons.can you tell me how superior is?

I'd say the Mongol invasion and then later the strict rule first by the mongols and then by the manchus was the absolute main reason of science and technologies was pressed down aftersong dynasty's demise.
After all for the Yuan and Qing court the most important thing was to maintain the han population and not to develop anything new and potentially dangerous things.

Click to expand...

Mongols invaded Europe too. Qing dynasty did make so many cannons, some as big as 5,000 kgs.

Anyway, fire arms were used extensively already during Southern Song dynasty, even more at the Ming dynasty, thus why you don't see the Qing dynasty soldiers ever wared armor.

Click to expand...

Ming dynasty most fire arms imported from the West. To be imitating manufacturing. Qing army did have haevy armor for the cavalry, but infantry soldiers don't ware armor,Manchu people think that the infantry is not suitable to wear armor.

after all, If we say, feudal society make China lags behind the West, but you think the Tang Dynasty superior than West at least 100 years , then I have nothing to say.

Up until the Napoleonic Wars Chinese arms were still comparable in performance to European counterparts, but the rapid improvements in European artillery and industrial production of firearms was the real tipping point. The bigger issue affecting Chinese military performance much more than technology was military organization and supply.

I think it is the philosophy of the chinese military that actually give birth to the weakening of the military. Right up to the Qing Dynasty, the chinese still make use of huge number of semi trained or not trained local militia as a vast part of their military.

Couple with their usual culture of priding and focusing more in scholarly works rather than weapon development, the Chinese military at those older era was quite weak at each dynasty's latter years.

It is noted that all dynasty ended quite violently with uprising and stuff like that. And so it is understandable that when a dynasty was overthrown and a new one was build there is this inner fear of the ruling caste for the military, and so they would quench down on the military, or even forbid weapon developement (just a thought).

Plus modern firearms that seemed to be decades more advance than anything that their neighbours are armed with or are protected against also had an impact of the Chinese seemingly lax attitude towards improving and refining this type of firearms.

I believe this is also posted by someone before me, that the European countries developement of the firearms took a somehow different path as the Chinese, because all of the European countries seemed to share very similar or equivalent technology and so it is essential for them to try and outdone each other or face a total annihilation. It is an early form of arms race in Europe which basically bring about many breakthrough in firearms.

China on the other hand do not have this problem... that is until Song dynasty. Actually after Yuan, Ming dynasty had make use of quite alot of firearms in their military (esp one particular general, Yuan Chonghuang).

When Qing destroyed Ming and build up their empire, before Kangxi, firearms are not really very common. In actual fact, the Qing was focusing more on their cavalry, until the revolt of the three Han kings that Kangxi began to build or buy foreign cannons in earnest.

Please also note that Zheng Chengong who took over Taiwan from the Dutch, actually uses quite a number of firearms. The Taiwanese island before Qing's unification of the island with mainland China also make use of large number of cannons in their navy and as shore protection.

Battle for Taiwan, both Qing and Zheng Jing's troops actually also make extensive usage of cannons against each other...

Thus as you can see, it is not that China do not use firearms extensively, but somehow after Qing had managed to unify China, she actually lax on her arms law and not further develope the cannons, maybe because she is not feeling any threat by anyone around her. Please note that in the early years of the Qing dynasty, the Chinese empire is still consider as one of the strongest in the world and the strongest in Asia.

solarz said:

Say what? Where do you get your info anyway?

The reason Qing soldiers don't wear armor is the same reason that European conscripts don't wear armor: armor is expensive, and reserved for commanders and lords.

The Qing military also relied extensively on Han troops. If they trusted Han soldiers, even in battles against other Han armies (such as Wu Sangui and the Taiwan Zheng family), why wouldn't they trust Han inventors to make new weapons that the Qing themselves can use? Controlling military technology is not exactly that difficult.

Click to expand...

Yehe is absolutely correct. You are misunderstanding him.

China was very advanced until the mid-Ming Dynasty. It's quite evident looking at China's early artillery warfare.

You see, the proto-industrial development of the Song and Ming was based on the theoretical high point of the Tang Dynasty several hundred years earlier. Eventually, during the 1500's and 1600's, those proto-industrial technologies spread to Europe.

In Europe, these proto-industrial technologies set off a subsequent theoretical high point called the Renaissance and Enlightenment. Leonardo Di Vinci probably got most of his inventions from ideas originating from China. That theoretical high point in Europe eventually evolved into the industrial revolution during late 1700's.

Now China had two chances to catch the train so to speak. One, during the Ming Dynasty, it could have caught the theoretical peak of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. But the Ming Dynasty was corrupt with court politics, neo-Confucianism, shut itself off from the world and abandoned China's nascent blue water navy. That was mistake number 1.

Two, it could have caught the early part of the industrial revolution around the Napoleonic era. But Qianlong thought that gunpowder weapons were destabilizing to the government because it allows a mere peasant to equalize with the warrior aristocrats -- who were kung-fu masters.

He was probably right. The Manchu / Han Chinese division also played into this since most of the Manchus were warrior aristocrats, but only some of the Han Chinese were warrior aristocrats, most were peasants.

So, that decision brought the Qing greater stability for a temporary period but resulted in disaster when the Europeans fully industrialized by the time of the Opium War. That was mistake number two.

I don't think ancient China lacked behind in weapons tech. Invention of crossbow, gunpowder, cannons, guns, battleships (junks with movable ore and compartmentalized ship body), land mines, underwater mines, compass. China had been leading the world in weapons tech in almost every area before 1700s. In the book "1421, the year China discovered America", it was mentioned that China's navy was stronger than the entire European navies all combined. On one of the expeditions by Zheng He, he commanded 300 ships. Columbus' 5 ships all together could fit in one of those ships commanded by Zheng He.

Many of China's weapon invention was way ahead of the others. For instance, the crossbow was invented in the Zhou dynasty and Europe did not get the equipment 'til 1300's. The Pope was so afraid of the power of the crossbow that he banned the use of the weapon.

Many people nowadays have this misconception that China always lacks behind. I don't think this is true. Because China lacks behind NOW, the confidence of many people have been low and this has been extended to the belief that China has always been lacking behind.