Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[GTI]

Not just an AWAC. It is a J-16D + KJ-500 + J-20 with all aspect stealth against wide radar spectrum, long range + loitering ability, high supersonic performance + supercruise, and large weapons load for a variety of missions. Very difficult to understate the importance of this bird.

Save yourself some time and just say “Air Destroyer” / “Sky Destroyer”

Seriously though, the moment we start discussing power generation and VLS (micro missiles) as much as aerodynamics and kinematics - is how you know.

 

[tphuang]

In the latest talkshow Yankee says:

1) J-36 will not be a Mach 3 capable aircraft.

This will disappoint certain people here. But the idea of Mach3.0 probably got overly played.

2) Yankeesama has talked briefly with J-36 Chief Designer Wang Haifeng.
3) Chief Designer care not much about hard specs such as top speed, max thrust, etc. The important criteria of the fighter is instead power generation capability.

Yes, people. Calm down on the high speed stuff.

Power generation is the top criteria here.
I keep talking about this and people keep ignoring this and show pictures and talk about hypersonic.

4) J-36 can serve as EW and AWAC to some capacity.

Another point that should be obvious and I've been talking about it at ad nauseam.

5) No pulsed detonation engine or ramjet on J-36. They can’t provide enough power to even existing fighter aircraft avionics, let alone something as sophisticated as CHAD.

Once you lose the requirement on mach 3, it's obvious that WS-15 is the most logical solution.

Keep in mind, my suggestion for mach4 to 5 drone is not expected to scan the skies to find B-21.

It's to fly over, drop bombs and come back.

6) Engine design no longer focuses on thrust alone. What’s more important is subsystem for power generation under whole flight envelope. Power regulation system is therefore of foremost importance. An example would be NEV vs ICE or F-15 vs MiG-25.

OMG, another thing that I've been talking about.
In order to keep power generation across whole flight envelope, you need good battery tech.
The entire NEV tech stack is critical here.

High voltage, compact electrical system, high charge/discharge performance, high power density.
That leads to greater efficiency.

7) Variable cycle engine will conform to J-36’s design.
8) Yankee once again agrees with SDF assessment that the J-36 is not a simple fighter, fighter bomber, bomber, etc. but a new system altogether. It is more akin to an air based cruiser.

Will post the link when it is up on bilibili.

We've probably listened to enough of his commentary that his earlier comments formed part of our opinion.

I remember basically his comment about J-20S was what formed my thought process on command & control in forward position.

It's funny to see all these fools on American side talk about how China needs to steal tech from them when a lot of the basic tech for J-36/6th gen are all related to electrification and energy efficiency that are developed by China's rapid EV advances.

 

[kurutoga]

In the latest talkshow Yankee says:
1) J-36 will not be a Mach 3 capable aircraft.
2) Yankeesama has talked briefly with J-36 Chief Designer Wang Haifeng.
3) Chief Designer care not much about hard specs such as top speed, max thrust, etc. The important criteria of the fighter is instead power generation capability.
4) J-36 can serve as EW and AWAC to some capacity

Thanks for the pointer. I had to dig up their radio talk show (on a mobile app called Qingting Radio). It's a talk show for the fans, not official source. They seem to think J-36 was designed differently.

• The entire plane is a vehicle of energy management. There are energy source (engines), energy consumption, thermal management etc. They compared J-36 as if it is a Plug-in Hybrid Car which is designed primarily as a electric car with gas as energy source. They also compared it to traditional propulsion in warship vs new IEP solutions
• The traditional fighter jet wasted too much energy in propulsion without thinking about using it. In J-36 and the new plane design methodology, the type and model of the engines are still important, but they no longer define the plane.
• Just like Plug-in Hybrid cars or IEP ships, I suspect the plane contains much larger energy storage (battery or some sort of system) than traditional jets

After listening to it, my immediate thought was to compare J-36 to a flying Type 055. Then, a few more little points I can remember:

• CAC and SCA each have an entire system, not just one jet (remember the tea pot/tea cup analogy)
• What they showed so far is part of each system
• They believed the CCA/UCAV in both systems had flown two years ago

It's been more than 100 years since electrification as human's way of using energy. Finally we are seeing it goes into mainstream weapon systems. Seems so natural for China's industry base.

 

[ficker22]

It often boggles mind whenever people think that more engines must be equal to higher (max) speeds. The H-20 is expected to be powered by four engines - Does anyone seriously think that the H-20 must be able to travel at Mach 4??

Also, has there been any considerations given to how the stealth paints and coatings would perform under such speeds of travel, whenever such claims arise? Come on guys, be realistic.

If you want a much higher speed warplane, then kindly wait for 7th-gens with near-space/suborbital capabilities... maybe.



Honestly, I think we'd be better to stick with "multi-role combat warplanes" when referring to the likes of J-36, J-XDS and even the H-20, going forward. Perhaps referring to them by their relative sizes and manned/unmanned feature could help to distinguish them.

Last-but-not-least - There will never be a JH-XX, and the J-36 will never be one (despite some groups of people, including the infamous grifter 落总师 on Bilibili, would like to imply).

I think it is more of a notion due to the ventral caret intakes that people assume high max mach.

 

[bsdnf]

Xi Yazhou stated in the broadcast that the third engine could achieve wide envelope flight through inlet optimization, I guess it is the Variable Bump inlet mentioned in Wang Haifeng's paper. It can maintain low speed when not needed, and use mainly when supersonic cruise is needed ,to achieve supersonic cruise without afterburner. Supersonic cruise without afterburner saves more fuel than removing the weight of the third engine and then supersonic cruise with afterburner. But the J-36 still mainly needs inlets on both sides.

Ultimately, it is a compromise when AETP is not yet mature. However, even if AETP succeeds, it does not mean that the three-engine design is outdated. It only means further improvement in range and speed.

WS-15 is obviously not the target engine, it is just a transition

 

[enroger]

It's funny to see all these fools on American side talk about how China needs to steal tech from them when a lot of the basic tech for J-36/6th gen are all related to electrification and energy efficiency that are developed by China's rapid EV advances.

And comm industry, this thing is probably a mega base station, hello huawei

 

[siegecrossbow]

I made it big in the China watching circle. If anyone from DC is reading this PM me so I can instruct you on where to deposit the DOGE coins.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[sequ]

Power generation wise tho. Any info on what engine mounted generator for say WS-10 or WS-15's ?

Russians for example developed GP-21 for early AL-31F engine. The generator provides about 30 KW of power, 2 engines means 60 KW. Later flankers are using GP-25 which provides 60 KW thus later flankers may have some 120 KW of electrical power generation ability. Below is some example of electrical power generation capability of some aircrafts.

View attachment 142277

The 3 engines on the J-36 might allow, assuming GP-25 like still used some 180 KW of power, can be higher if China design better generators or even somehow make provisions to allow the say 3rd engine to have pads to accommodate extra generator, this can provides at least 240 KW. The future however might be to directly integrate the generator into the engine, make use of the centerbody. Tho, this might need new engine design.

They should have no trouble at all generating more than 500 kW with 3x WS-15.

 

[valysre]

It will be much faster than that. They completely overhauled the engineering process during WS-15 development process so they won’t fall into the same traps the second time around.

They must be extremely confident if they are really hanging a good portion of the potential future performance of J-36 on the successful development of a VCE.

 

[Nx4eu]

Via @paralay / Secret Projects Forum

View attachment 142263

Fantastic he didn't listen to my suggestion at all, those engines are mounted too far back