Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[Biscuits]

Dogfight is still predominantely done by eyes. Which is, among other reasons, why outdogfighting humans was still done only in lab tests - actual drone to do it will require certain level of situational awareness and AI to achieve it, more than what's available now.

But you still need to close some sort of gap to reach those eyeball distances. The J-36 can just easily execute the 4th gen in that distance, because it knows where to look while the F-16 doesn't.

Even assuming a F-16V and a J-36 take off on opposite sides of 2 runways like 2 pistol duelists, there will still be at least 5-20km between the planes at some point.

If the scenario is that the J-36 and F-16V spawn already engaged in a death loop 100s of meters from eachother, well that's basically a wholly pointless scenario. It's like saying a knife wielding Zulu warrior spawns face to face 5 cm away from a rifle wielding green beret: who wins?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

To be fair, they did note that the 6th gen was all about stealth and wasn't about dog-fighting at the very start. They however never mention it again.

They also say it isn't stealthy at all.

 

[talonn]

These are ex USAF pilots with 2k hours in air superiority platforms. They believe that F-16s will be able to shoot them down easily because a tailless delta configuration can never outturn an F-16 in visual range, and that the Chinese actuators for the control surfaces are stone age technology because of how large they are. In fact they are eager to 'dogfight' against it.

Yaaaa i bet the Chinese are eager to dogfight B21 in their J10s too

 

[siegecrossbow]

These are ex USAF pilots with 2k hours in air superiority platforms. They believe that F-16s will be able to shoot them down easily because a tailless delta configuration can never outturn an F-16 in visual range, and that the Chinese actuators for the control surfaces are stone age technology because of how large they are. In fact they are eager to 'dogfight' against it.

PLAAF J-5 could easily down an SR-71 in a low speed dogfight. How cowardly of the SR-71 pilots not to engage. Where’s maverick?

 

[iewgnem]

Well, in dogfight they're most likely right - and that's one of the reasons why traditional new gen fighters probably won't go anywhere.
But there are these suspicious side appertures and side bays for something - i wonder what they're for...

If dogfights happen it can be handeled by UCAV or next gen SRAAMs with no g-limits, if it comes up.
The less visible but just as important aspect of CHAD in general is, by optmizing for large size and long range BVR engagements, its implicitly indicating that CHAD sensor suite consider American 5th gen stealth to be fully neutralized.

 

[siegecrossbow]

They also say it isn't stealthy at all.

Not sure that’s something you can eyeball.

 

[latenlazy]

Well, in dogfight they're most likely right - and that's one of the reasons why traditional new gen fighters probably won't go anywhere.
But there are these suspicious side appertures and side bays for something - i wonder what they're for...

Not really. Dog fights became a necessary thing because once you lost energy in the merge you couldn’t recover it quickly. Rapid acceleration into the supersonic regime with supercruise changed this condition but brought about fuel consumption penalties. If you can supercruise without the same fuel consumption penalties that means you have no reason to stay in the lower energy domains that make dog fighting necessary anyways. Dog fighting is important when you have to maximize your advantages in a lower energy envelope but if you’re not trapped there and can fight in a higher energy envelope why handicap yourself.

“Haha your fighting movements would suck with a knife”
“…Why do I care I fight with a spear”.

 

[AssassinsMace]

"As you can hear in the videos they're loud you probably don't want to buy a house around any of the airfields where these airplanes will be operating in"

LMAO poor coping boomer. If only he knew what I would give to be living near such an airfield no matter which country it is.

Yes I’ve been to airshows in the US and fighter engines are a lot louder to the point of deafening in person than when heard from a video. It is cope because it comes up a lot for the J-20 like it’s significant when some claim it’s not stealthy something never pointed out for the F-22 or F-35. Pretty soon you’ll hear a spin how it’s illegal for China to have belonging only to democracies or how producing them is taking away food from starving Chinese.

 

[Xiongmao]

Not sure that’s something you can eyeball.

Exactly, if I wasn't told by Grumman that the RCS of the B-21 was less than that of an insect, I would never have believed it. (Not sure I still believe it )

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Nah, there isn't a way a F-16 can see it to begin with. Not just due to stealth but also EW.

Plus I wouldn't count out J-36 maneuverability just because it's large. It has what, estimated thrust to weight 1.2. And TVC.

J-36 might be in disadvantage to a very optimized air superiority 5th gen in a knife distance dog fight. And it would almost guaranteed be dismantled in a cqc fight by J-XS. But saying a comparative relic like J-10C or F-16V can stand a chance at any range is pushing it very far.

Ultimately this thing is a penetrating long range strike platform, it's China's counterpart or counter to B-21. Strong aerospace performance is intended to help it in the penetration role, not make it some sort of dogfight specialist. That it can still use it's specs, stealth and EW to dismantle old fighters in wvr is a coincidence, not it's main function.

Even a J-7 could out turn an AAM armed B-21 in a dogfight, but that's a pointless observation.

This is giving their B-21 idea way too much credit and JH-36 way too little credit. Delta wing blended body has good supersonic maneuverability. Flying wing is subsonic and can't go supersonic at all. Side intake means you can keep air breathing even in high AOA climbs. Top intakes only means you can't climb fast otherwise your fuselage blocks line of sight to the wind direction. Being subsonic with topside intake only is a huge limitation for maneuverability. You can't outrun or outclimb a threat.

If you are subsonic and can't climb, you have to shoot first at everything and successfully shoot down everything. Otherwise you'll get shot down with short ranged missiles by even 1 enemy that gets through. It isn't like medieval knights clashing in a head to head (1-D battlespace) 1v1, it is a NvN 3D battlespace.