Wait, what? How did H-20 suddenly become a "stain"?
Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
Who the heck cares what others think.
H20 is never a high priority project in my perspective.
Every important targets are well within ballistic, cruises range and some even mlrs range
Is a nice to have, but niche system
Every important targets are well within ballistic, cruises range and some even mlrs range
Is a nice to have, but niche system
H-20 and its equivalents would be a nice to have against weaker opponents away from home. It would be a sustainable suppression tool, at cost of being at higher risks. But that is way down the line. For now J-36 and its equivalent needs to rule the sky, and attrite AA network with artillery first.
I was always on the side of 'Why does China need long-ranged bombers and nuclear attack submarines" camp until someone on a different forum, an American of all people, actually changed my mind on that. Even if China fights a war in the near-abroad with the US and annihilates all US bases, sinks literally their entire carrier fleet, and reigns supreme over Asia, that doesn't mean China wins. The US might continue to twist Europe, Africa, or South America's arm or sanctioning them to stop dealing with China or even sending strike aircraft to sink commercial ships owned by or associated with China.
By having the ability to strike all over the world, importantly the US mainland, China will gain the ability to impose costs on the US and at least coerce a more favorable end to the war on their terms. Without systems like the H-20, probably heavily supported by the J-36, China will lack initiative and will need to wait for US conditions and politics, passively, to change in their favor. This might take decades to happen, if they happen at all. H-20s means China can force the issue and, if nothing else, can damage US ports, airbases, and potentially even factories or the powerplants feeding them in a much more protracted war. It grants China much more parity compared to a situation where Chinese cities and factories are held at threat whereas the US heartland can remain virtually untouched as they were by earlier wars.
Exactly so. The way I've come to conceive the "Taiwan War" is that it isn't about Taiwan whatsoever, it's about who runs the world. To prevail, China must both be able to take the fight to the US all over the world and harden itself so that coercive tactics like blockades and piracy of the kind the US is contemplating fail.
As you've described, strikes by long range systems like stealth bombers, nuclear attack submarines, conventional-by-default but nuclear-optioned PGSwCC (Prompt Global Strike with Chinese Characteristics) hypersonic weapons are essential. To bring this on topic, an underappreciated aspect of the J-36 is that it's the first Pacific-ranged air superiority fighter, which will greatly expand the zone in which other Chinese systems can safely operate.
You don’t need the ability to hit all around the world really. You just need the ability to hard perma-kill Guam and if absolutely needed Hawaii. DFs don’t do this very well. SSNs do this better but require a lot of conditional strategic positioning and operational support to be employed at higher intensity. A big stealth bomber though gives you about as much capability and flexibility as you can ask for in the modern day. Higher tempo, fewer operational strings attached, much more prompt. There are some missions that are just best done by dumping a giant payload of bombs from the air whenever wherever.
You disable Guam with some DFs and SSN strikes and in a few days to weeks that base might recuperate sufficient operational capacity for you to have to deal with again. You disable Guam with DFs and SSN strikes and then follow up with regular munition dumps when it’s open and vulnerable you take it off the map for good. That would be checkmate for the US in the Pacific.
Why do you need a stealth bomber to do the dump truck role when you can use H-8s? Well if Guam is disabled one of the first things the USN is going to try to do is protect it with what air defenses they can deploy over water. You can of course try to take care of those destroyers covering Guam as the US tries to repair basing capacity first and then fly in your badgers. Or you can just ignore them and fly one or a few H-20 to kill any attempt to establish regeneration capacity. At the very least the H-20 puts much greater pressure on the USN to allocate more of their already thinly spread assets to defensive rather than offensive positioning. This is a very valuable strategic effect to pursue if you only want to fight one Pacific war with the US and make sure it’s never an option again. For that alone the H-20 is a necessary capability to acquire sooner rather than later without needing to consider broader global reach.
I think Hawaii and Alaska are the bare minimum, since a fair bit of present US assets are massed there. As time moves on though and assuming the US fields more capable, longer ranged, and more potent weapons then the reach for Chinese weapons will only expand. It only makes sense to me to configure the H-20 to at least have the ability to strike the CONUS from China with change, since the H-20 still isn't ready, probably won't be ready for around another decade or so, and will probably need to be useful for at least a few decades after that. Even the J-36 is a bit short-legged imo, but I suppose China can configure a tanker fleet to extend their range somewhat.
Edit: sorry, sorry. Mods please delete this message.
That's completely clueless then. As China pushes up, they will also extend their own range by placing assets in the newly liberated areas.
Hello, unrestricted bombing. By sanctioning China on behalf of US after an unprecedented American aggression, you enter the war on US side. The Xinjiang to Europe distance is not further than the middle China to Japan distance.
So if US tries to invade, loses a ton of assets, let's say they arm twist Europe or Africa to sanction China, well, are they gonna provide AAMs to defend those countries? How will they get sufficient numbers of AAMs while at the same time preventing a mobilised China from breaking through towards Australia/Hawaii?
Also, for the strikes that make it through, US will need to replace infrastructure in those countries. US can produce enough generators, water filters whatever for Europe, Africa and later South America and also has the shipbuilding to ship them to co-aggressor nations?
And remember at the same time China will arm twist other countries to let their forces through, especially Russia and fighter bases. So there is not only airstrikes, but also SEAD. Especially from super nasty threats like J-36. So that means US needs awacs, anti stealth radar, F-35, B-21 in full air support outfit deployed in those countries to prevent China from just freely destroying the AAMs (and also ports, ships where US affiliated vessels are docked). These assets in turn require even more defenses, like THAAD and Patriot, because otherwise once the B-21 or AWACS is on the ground, a random DF-26 can just kill them. These are all very bad trades for US, all these assets should rather be on the front and preventing China through breaking through, not defending some hole in Europe.
This proposal also completely makes no sense. By doing it, they would be directly attacking Chinese civilians. China will attack the hosting nation's civilians back in a disproportionate way. 1000s of seaborne drones into their ports, sinking their commercial ships in Asia, and just like above, unrestricted air campaign that Washington needs to fully bankroll defenses for.
Did US wait with replying to Pearl Harbor until having a bomber that can reliably hit Imperial Japan heartland? Did Germany wait with Barbarossa until they had a bomber that can consistently hit Siberia??
This trope is arbitrary cope by US nationalists in denial that starting a war against China would be a monumentally bad idea. "As long as China can't bomb the west coast on day 1 as hard as they can bomb Japan, China won't dare to go into a war" this is complete cope and even dangerous delusion. Or even more ridiculous saying that fighter escorts like J-36 need to have ranges that reach CONUS to be an effective deterrent to US.
Newsflash: wars are fought along capturing territory, whether land offensives or island hopping. J-36 et al are meant to aid those tasks by seizing full air control, which means initially operating close to China and then slowly expanding out as more territory gets liberated, not as some sort of ridiculous "America bomber + escort" that is an arbitrary delusional requirement set down by coping Americans.
If there is a day where on day 1 H-20s/SSNs/CVNs/6th gen can go directly above west coast and wither them with strikes, that's not a day US and China reaches parity, that's a day where the power balance become like between India and China.
Last edited: