Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ke= 1/2mv^2. This means you can EITHER choose to favour increasing the velocity of the jet or the mass airflow while providing the same amount of energy. The reason you choose a different engine for the job, is because you want your jet speed to be as close as possible to the forward motion of the plane. This isn't possible because of drag, so the jet will always have to be slightly faster than freestream, and there will be some rubbing between the jet and the free stream. That is part of the reason you need different engines for different applications.
Man this is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly when talking about how thrust interacts with stuff that’s flying you need to consider momentum not energy.

Secondly since the part about engine choice and jet velocity part makes absolutely no sense whatsoever I’ll try to explain. The reason you want different engines for different speed regimes boils down very roughly into “having as much mass flow as possible while maintaining adequate exhaust velocity”. Propulsive efficiency is higher for engines with high mass flow than with high exhaust velocity, all else being equal, but in reality bypass air in turbofans (especially high bpr ones) have difficulty accelerating enough for high Mach number operations which is why you see turbojets and ACEs being developed that operates as basically a turbojet at high Mach numbers. No you don’t need the jet speed to be equal to the forward motion of the plane and I don’t see how that even works unless your engine’s mass flow rate equals the plane’s mass (in which case P=mv kicks in and ensures the momentum from the exhaust equals the momentum of the aircraft except it’s still not correct because the freestream velocity hasn’t been taken into account which leads to a bunch of reference frame shenanigans). Also the fact that (for an actual working engine) the jet velocity is higher than the freestream has nothing to do with drag and everything to do with if it’s not exiting at a higher speed then it’s simply not creating any thrust and at that point you might as well build a glider for all the good that engine will do. On top of that I fail to see how the rubbing between the engine exhaust jet and the freestream is part of this conversation as once the jet leaves the exhaust the force (and by extension moment) is imparted onto the jet and what happens after is none of the jet’s business (that is unless you want to go into under and over expansion and how that messes with the pressure field behind the nozzle and how that in turn affects the nozzle behavior but again that’s off-topic).

I don’t want to go into too much detail but other things wrong with this post includes:

The B-58 was aerially refueled five times if I remember correctly, and it sustained an 8+ hour supersonic flight without a gram of titanium, only aluminum and fiberglass. That is a testament to how important drag is, because with the wrong geometry, you would need titanium and body maintenance after supersonic flights, such as in the case of the F-15.
there’s supersonic flights and there’s supersonic flightsyou don’t need heat-resistent stuff to go supersonic you need them to go over the heat barrier which neither the B-58 nor the F-15 did (hence neither had titanium or steel or whatever heat-resistant-material skin on the leading edge where aerodynamic heating is most significant)

F15’s titanium structure (frame, skin over engines, also part of the horizontal skin I think) is mainly there because it is stronger than Aluminum at equal weight while significantly lighter than steel at same strength, and it can deal with the engine’s waste heat.
Speed wasn't important and drag was so high, but the F-15 could somehow push M2.4+ with less than 50k lb of thrust?
Don’t use sea level thrust for high-altitude calculations because that also makes no sense, let me introduce you to something called a thrust curve. Turns out engines produces different thrusts at different Mach numbers and different altitudes and sea level performance has very little bearing on high-altitude high-speed performance.

Also stop quoting thrust without referring to aircraft size two F100s (or F110s in later models) is absolutely enough thrust for F15’s <30000lb empty weight.
The F-15 had oversized wings? Its wing span is just 13 meters, over 2 meters less than the Su-27.
Yes the F-15 absolutely had oversized wings if the definition for “correctly sized wings” is a wing that optimizes supersonic straight-line flight. Again stop quoting random numbers in a vacuum the increase is simply useless here and comparing it to a flanker is somewhat less than useless. If you want to actually know the F15’s performance you probably need exact geometry and a good CFD solver but the gist is that F-15 did indeed use a bunch of design features (blunt-tip airfoils, cranked wing, low wing loading, etc) to make sure that it can generate absolutely massive amounts of lift and maintain a pretty good L/D at high AoA, and naturally the consequence for this is more CD0 which means it’s a bit less efficient at cruise. This is done by all 4th gens and is arguably one of 4th gen fighter’s defining characteristics but that’s off topic.
Form, skin friction, and wave drag from the armament had little importance on the total drag of the aircraft?
no one’s saying that but all else being equal, a more draggy wing at cruise condition means the total drag at cruise is higher. It’s not rocket science (literally) and since the wings generate a significant amount of lift, even a small reduction in L/D leads to pretty substantial increases in drag.


Now that I’ve established you really don’t quite know what you’re on about let’s stop this nonsense and get back to what this thread is actually about.
 
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OppositeDay

Senior Member
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He was joking, and acknowledged the convergent evolution behind the process in the comments.



I don't have a particularly high opinion of Perun (and I question his choice to interview Justin Bronk, who knows far more about NATO/Russia than anything China-related), but he's far from the worst commentator on youtube. He's probably the best entry-level guy for casual Western viewers.

The best part is when Justin Bronk speculates that J-36 has grown out of the JH-XX program because 14 years are too short to go from 5th to 6th gen fighter development. This just shows he doesn't even have a basic grasp of PLA procurement and development doctrines.

One of the most fundamental PLA equipment development doctrines is "服役一代、研制一代、预研一代、探索一代"
In English, at any given time for a given type of equipment:
1. One generation is in service
2. One generation is in full development.
3. One generation is in preliminary research and feasibility study
4. One generation is being brainstormed.
Chengdu was already researching the next-gen fighter program before we first saw J-20 in 2011. Just like they were already researching J-20 when J-10 first flew in 1998.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
The best part is when Justin Bronk speculates that J-36 has grown out of the JH-XX program because 14 years are too short to go from 5th to 6th gen fighter development. This just shows he doesn't even have a basic grasp of PLA procurement and development doctrines.

One of the most fundamental PLA equipment development doctrines is "服役一代、研制一代、预研一代、探索一代"
In English, at any given time for a given type of equipment:
1. One generation is in service
2. One generation is in full development.
3. One generation is in preliminary research and feasibility study
4. One generation is being brainstormed.
Chengdu was already researching the next-gen fighter program before we first saw J-20 in 2011. Just like they were already researching J-20 when J-10 first flew in 1998.
Or how Perun at 49:50 in his video automatically slots the J-36 into the "medium threat" category while putting the NGAD into the "high threat" category, without knowing a thing about either one. Like I said, these guys are white noise and don't even bother hiding their biases, not even a little. They are worth listening to if you don't have anything else left to do LOL
 

SAC

Junior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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Many (some might say most) YouTubers are focused on hyperbole to make money or to promote a narrative (to satisfy others). I would urge all to look at the qualifications and bone fides or these YouTubers, what is their motivations, what is their experience, what is their track record.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Reverse understanding of the reality... This is like saying wet roads cause rain. One wants as low jet velocity as possible because thrust is the momentum added to the air and momentum scales linearly with both speed and velocity. The same energy added to more mass means more momentum. Adding energy to a bigger mass of air is always better. It is impossible for an engine to not generate a jet faster than the incoming flow anyway.
Man this is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly when talking about how thrust interacts with stuff that’s flying you need to consider momentum not energy.

Secondly since the part about engine choice and jet velocity part makes absolutely no sense whatsoever I’ll try to explain. The reason you want different engines for different speed regimes boils down very roughly into “having as much mass flow as possible while maintaining adequate exhaust velocity”. Propulsive efficiency is higher for engines with high mass flow than with high exhaust velocity, all else being equal, but in reality bypass air in turbofans (especially high bpr ones) have difficulty accelerating enough for high Mach number operations which is why you see turbojets and ACEs being developed that operates as basically a turbojet at high Mach numbers. No you don’t need the jet speed to be equal to the forward motion of the plane and I don’t see how that even works unless your engine’s mass flow rate equals the plane’s mass (in which case P=mv kicks in and ensures the momentum from the exhaust equals the momentum of the aircraft except it’s still not correct because the freestream velocity hasn’t been taken into account which leads to a bunch of reference frame shenanigans).
Pretty much exactly what I said explained in terms of momentum. I just took energy as a constant and used energy to make the analogy due to the fact that excess jet speeds produce residual kinetic energy that interacts with the freestream and produces losses. Its not like the the thrust comes from unicorns. It comes from the propelling nozzle ejecting molecules carrying kinetic energy. Jet velocity vs maf. Same thing.

On top of that I fail to see how the rubbing between the engine exhaust jet and the freestream is part of this conversation as once the jet leaves the exhaust the force (and by extension moment) is imparted onto the jet and what happens after is none of the jet’s business (that is unless you want to go into under and over expansion and how that messes with the pressure field behind the nozzle and how that in turn affects the nozzle behavior but again that’s off-topic).
This is literally part of the definition of propulsive energy that you just explained. This difference in air speeds produces losses in the form of wake that consume fuel and don't contribute to propulsion at all. This difference has to exist due to having to overcome drag, but too much of it means you are using the wrong engine for the job.

Also the fact that (for an actual working engine) the jet velocity is higher than the freestream has nothing to do with drag and everything to do with if it’s not exiting at a higher speed then it’s simply not creating any thrust and at that point you might as well build a glider for all the good that engine will do.
And why do you need thrust during cruise? Only to overcome drag. Even lift imparts only lift induced drag in the horizontal component. Total drag is the only force acting on the plane in the horizontal component. For a plane to travel at constant speed and altitude, the only force it has to overcome is total drag. That is the only reason jet velocity needs to be slightly higher than the freestream velocity.

No you don’t need the jet speed to be equal to the forward motion of the plane and I don’t see how that even works unless your engine’s mass flow rate equals the plane’s mass (in which case P=mv kicks in and ensures the momentum from the exhaust equals the momentum of the aircraft except it’s still not correct because the freestream velocity hasn’t been taken into account which leads to a bunch of reference frame shenanigans).
Mass isn't considered at constant speeds and level flight, only lift induced drag.

Thinking that jet engines need to have a stationary jet velocity above M2 to reach M2 is Reddit understanding. There is no jet velocity matching in aerospace engineering.
So are you saying the engine can produce a jet velocity below M2 while the plane travels above M2?

None of these are relevant to the (already very off) topic and they address nothing too. You are trying to nitpick the semantics of my writing. Go look at the thrust and wing area of the F-15 and other 4th gens and compare them to the previous aircraft of the similar MTOW. A strawman argument is exaggerating or distorting peoples' statements and then arguing against that version. Which is exactly what you attempted with Mach 5 and the CFM-56 examples.
I twisted nothing. You said it is too draggy and brought in the Cold War then brought in claims made in advertisements, so I told you the fact that it can do over M2.4 runs counter to what you are saying. It is probably draggy in the subsonic regime, but like I explained before, subsonic drag requires planes to look clean and heavily streamlined, while supersonic drag requires a different kind of streamlining that deals with compressible flow.

The WS-15 is probably isn't rated for a lower pressure or temp than engines from 50 years ago
This part is why I made the CFM example. It has to do with bpr and maf and the airframe. We are talking about the configuration of the engine and at what point it operates at maximum efficiency, which can only be one single point regardless of temp limits, opr, epr etc. Of course the WS-15 will have all the bells and whistles of a modern engine, but you can't make it push any jet velocity you want without taking the core and reconfiguring things around it.

???????? Air defenses those countries had were indeed defeated and EW was a part of it. The US sent the F-117s to bomb Baghdat right at the start during the Gulf War. This was mentioned on this thread previously in other contexts.
They sent in Special Forces and CIA into the country and convinced most of the Iraqi military to lay down their arms and the whole country fell down in a couple of weeks. Iraq was surrounded by enemies, landlocked, and blockaded for decades and corruption was running rampant. Calling it a highly contested airspace is just not a serious argument. In a real war like the Ukraine war, we clearly see objects getting shot down all the time unless long range standoff missiles and ship launched missiles are used.
 

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pretty much exactly what I said explained in terms of momentum. I just took energy as a constant and used energy to make the analogy due to the fact that excess jet speeds produce residual kinetic energy that interacts with the freestream and produces losses. Its not like the the thrust comes from unicorns. It comes from the propelling nozzle ejecting molecules carrying kinetic energy. Jet velocity vs maf. Same thing.


This is literally part of the definition of propulsive energy that you just explained. This difference in air speeds produces losses in the form of wake that consume fuel and don't contribute to propulsion at all. This difference has to exist due to having to overcome drag, but too much of it means you are using the wrong engine for the job.


And why do you need thrust during cruise? Only to overcome drag. Even lift imparts only lift induced drag in the horizontal component. Total drag is the only force acting on the plane in the horizontal component. For a plane to travel at constant speed and altitude, the only force it has to overcome is total drag. That is the only reason jet velocity needs to be slightly higher than the freestream velocity.


Mass isn't considered at constant speeds and level flight, only lift induced drag.
My only advice at this point is to go and read up on aircraft design stuff since I have no intention of teaching like 15 ects worth of engineering course on a forum. Again there is so much stuff fundamentally wrong with your interpretation of how engines and planes work I am kinda at a loss here.

I think the main issue here is you don’t really correctly understand how engines translate mass flow into thrust (especially how free stream velocity comes into play here.) and how it then balances out drag during flight. This then shows a deeper problem in that you need to have a deeper understanding on how flight mechanics work (for example 1: yes mass absolutely is considered at cruise condition it’s literally how you get the amount of lift needed 2: in addition to lift-induced drag you also have to consider zero-lift drag at cruise which can be pretty substantial). This actually requires systematic learning to fully understand which I really can’t do here.

Here’s a good list to start, read through these, make sure you actually understand aerodynamics and then maybe we can start having an educated and constructive conversation.


Fundamentals of aerodynamics by John Anderson
Flight vehicle aerodynamics by M. Drela
Introduction on transonic aerodynamics by Roelof Vos and Saeed Farokhi
Design for air combat Ray Whitford
Aircraft propulsion by Saeed Farokhi

edit: you don’t even need free body diagrams for this since that implies the issue here is analytical as opposed to conceptual
 
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iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
My only advice at this point is to go and read up on aircraft design stuff since I have no intention of teaching like 15 ects worth of engineering course on a forum. Again there is so much stuff fundamentally wrong with your interpretation of how engines and planes work I am kinda at a loss here. So I think the main issue here is you don’t really correctly understand how thrust works, which then shows a deeper problem in that you need to have a deeper understanding on how flight mechanics work. This actually requires systematic learning which I really can’t do here.


Here’s a good list to start, read through these, make sure you actually understand aerodynamics and then maybe we can start having an educated and constructive conversation.

Fundamentals of aerodynamics by John D Anderson
flight vehicle aerodynamics by M. Drela
Introduction on transonic aerodynamics by Roelof Vos and Saeed Farokhi
Design for air combat Ray Whitford
Aircraft Propulsion by Saeed Farokhi
Thank you for the suggestions. You can start with grade 9 Mechanics at free body diagrams.
 
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