Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sounds fair, but how do you know the control surfaces that we see on the J-36 are insufficient for traditional fighter levels of agility?

I don't know for certain. Maybe what human understanding of aerodynamics have improved that much where we can achieve similar levels of agility without stabilisers and canards now for these next generation. But looking at Shenyang's where there are likely moving wingtips, additional control surfaces on the top of the wings and canted stabilisers, that would suggest the best aerodynamicists can do to match 4th and 5th gen agility without vertical stabilisers is SAC's approach with numerous control surfaces that can be brought in when needed and cruise flat when not.
 

no_name

Colonel
When a Mach number is referenced in regards to an aircraft's speed, can we assume unless specified otherwise that it's sea-level Mach number? Because Mach number is reference to speed of sound and that speed is less the higher in altitude we go since less air density.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
My guess is that work load for commanding a small air fleet is beyond the scope of AI for now.
Is it really? Autopilot have been a thing for decades now. UAVs have been in use in strike roles controlled from the other side of the world for decades too.

We have seen swarm based communication from ground based drones navigating through a dense forest and various display of swarm usage in loitering munitions.

We have also seen successful long ranges strikes between Ukraine and Russia that have to get through thick GBAD networks and EW, hitting critical infrastructure quite accurately after flying through hundreds of kilometres of enemy airspace.

Is there a caveat to CCAs that I'm not seeing that makes them more complicated? They're expected to operate over higher and more open airspace, so I can't imagine command and control to be more challenging then other UAVs.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Is it really? Autopilot have been a thing for decades now. UAVs have been in use in strike roles controlled from the other side of the world for decades too.

We have seen swarm based communication from ground based drones navigating through a dense forest and various display of swarm usage in loitering munitions.

We have also seen successful long ranges strikes between Ukraine and Russia that have to get through thick GBAD networks and EW, hitting critical infrastructure quite accurately after flying through hundreds of kilometres of enemy airspace.

Is there a caveat to CCAs that I'm not seeing that makes them more complicated? They're expected to operate over higher and more open airspace, so I can't imagine command and control to be more challenging than other UAVs.

I’m not talking about autopilot, which is trivial, but tactical decision making based on huge amounts of data available.

Imagine that you are in a stealth fighter aircraft and through data linking with AWACs as well as passive sensors from your own aircraft you know that there are three enemy boogies in front of you, one of them is stealth, and two stealth fighter below you in the rear quadrant. Do you engage the boogies? In what order? How to engage while optimizing your stealth sector? How do you collaborate with other friendly assets? These are things that can be optimized through AI decision making.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
I’m not talking about autopilot, which is trivial, but tactical decision making based on huge amounts of data available.

Imagine that you are in a stealth fighter aircraft and through data linking with AWACs as well as passive sensors from your own aircraft you know that there are three enemy boogies in front of you, one of them is stealth, and two stealth fighter below you in the rear quadrant. Do you engage the boogies? In what order? How to engage while optimizing your stealth sector? How do you collaborate with other friendly assets? These are things that can be optimized through AI decision making.
We have yet to see even ground strike UAVs be given the delegation to attack ground targets autonomously. I think it's more of a doctrinal hurdle than a technical one. I'd imagine CCAs will be kept on a very tight leash from the command aircraft while running default routines, i.e maintain maximum stealth, only passive sensors/IRST and only engage when tasked by the command node.

But from a technology point of view, F35 recently demonstrated this capability which I believe China can also easily do:
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Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
When a Mach number is referenced in regards to an aircraft's speed, can we assume unless specified otherwise that it's sea-level Mach number? Because Mach number is reference to speed of sound and that speed is less the higher in altitude we go since less air density.
Most likely not. Most aircraft’s max Mach number is achieved at high altitudes (usually fairly close to the ceiling) while the max airspeed is achieved at low altitudes. For example at sea level 750 kts cas equals around M1.1 while at 50000ft 750kts cas equals to around M2.25

Additional clarification: very generally speaking 2 factors dictate the max “speed” of an aircraft: the airframe’s ability to withstand dynamic pressure and the engine’s ability to produce thrust (which counteracts drag). Generally at lower altitudes fighter aircraft are limited by airframe strength (AKA you see very high airspeed with relatively low Mach number) and at higher altitudes (where a low airspeed can equate to higher Mach number) they are thrust limited. This then means that if a number refers to an aircraft’s “Max Mach number” it most likely means the max within its entire envelope which then means it’s generally achieved at high altitudes.
 
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