Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
When happens when fuel runs low, does that lead to a decrease in heat dissipation?
simple rough calculation for decane from memory:

For 0.3 kJ/(C mol) molar heat capacity. Molar mass decane = 142 g/mol, density decane = 0.73 g/mL, 1 mol = 195 mL, 1 L = 5.13 mol. Volumetric heat capacity ~ 1.5 kJ/(C L).

Let's say you heat exchange with the fuel to +20C. 30 kJ/L heat dissipation. Fuel exhaustion is about 0.8 L/s for the F-16, no afterburner. Typical value. 24 kJ/s.

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Looks to me like you can dump roughly 24 kW worth of heat with an exchanger to heat fuel by +20C and immediately using it afterwards, during cruise.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maybe, but with the sorry state of US industry, I only believe when I see it.

Nah, think China is ahead.

Same, China ahead.

China decisively ahead.

China ahead.

Same.

Same.

Same

Same.

Same.

China ahead.

China gonna be ahead of US for 6th gen on this.

All in all, people have no idea of the incredible sorry state US industry is.
Would say it's very doubtful that they can meaningfully be able to mass produce future tech/weapons.

(Personally doubtful if the US will even field a proper 6th gen).

Also, not only in industry, but there's also signs that their foremost research in related/useful tech is slowing down/getting worse, although still far from how bad industry has gotten.

Like, just look at civilian airplanes from Boeing! That the idea that US military airplanes might be better than the state civilian Boeing planes? Lmao I say
The fact that the US is even debating between CCA and NAG or between B-21 and NGAD means the country is fundamentally no longer in a tax bracket that receive invite to fancy parties.
 

LuzinskiJ

Junior Member
Registered Member
simple rough calculation for decane from memory:

For 0.3 kJ/(C mol) molar heat capacity. Molar mass decane = 142 g/mol, density decane = 0.73 g/mL, 1 mol = 195 mL, 1 L = 5.13 mol. Volumetric heat capacity ~ 1.5 kJ/(C L).

Let's say you heat exchange with the fuel to +20C. 30 kJ/L heat dissipation. Fuel exhaustion is about 0.8 L/s for the F-16, no afterburner. Typical value. 24 kJ/s.

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Looks to me like you can dump roughly 24 kW worth of heat with an exchanger to heat fuel by +20C and immediately using it afterwards, during cruise.
I see, so you are using a heat exchanger where heat pipe where the fuel lines runs through it (or them) and act as the coolant before entering the engine. I was under the impression that heat pipe from electronics go through the fuel tank and the fuel within the tank act as the coolant where low fuel maybe a problem. Heat Exchanger makes way more sense! thanks
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I see, so you are using a heat exchanger where heat pipe where the fuel lines runs through it (or them) and act as the coolant before entering the engine. I was under the impression that heat pipe from electronics go through the fuel tank and the fuel within the tank act as the coolant where low fuel maybe a problem. Heat Exchanger makes way more sense! thanks

If you don't use the heated fuel, then the cooling capacity declines as a function of both tank level and temperature of the tank.

If you heat the fuel via a heat exchanger right before it is combusted, at least you don't have to consider heat transfer rate declining as the fuel heats up.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Say at subsonic cruise speed, you have 2 engines operating with the middle engine shut down. Yes, the middle-engine is creating drag. But at the same time, the airflow is still spinning the engine shaft and usefully generating electricity. So the drag issue is not as bad.
I was talking about the engine being operational and generating drag, not turned off. The engine wouldn't be generating useful energy while turned off at all. Just take a moment to think about it. You are talking about operating a gas turbine as if it were a wind turbine, so the air would have to run through the numerous compressor stages, then the combustors, then the turbine stages, then through the convergent-divergent nozzle, and while it does all of that, it would be operating the gearbox and running the generator and its constant drive unit (the IDG) and oil pump and sending oil to all axial and radial load bearings, which is a process that requires a gigantic amount of energy. The passive airflow would need to do this outside of the compressor map spec and the compressor would be in the surge region due to insufficient air. I could go on and on explaining other complications such as clogging up the fuel injectors with dirt due to them being idle, or the oil and it's cooler being too cold to lubricate properly (if they even do run), or the bleed or secondary air pressures and their valves and the anti-icing system that relies on these pressures and valves, but I think you get the idea of why a gas turbine cannot be operated as a wind turbine. In the real world, the engine would be stalled and air won't even enter the intake and would instead flow around it into the path of least resistance, especially since this is a mixed flow turbofan.

The other issue is having two different engines complicates logistic and maintenance, which is a wasteful solution that the Chinese are not known to entertain.

To summarize, I don't subscribe to the third engine shutting off at specific speeds or being a dedicated electrical power plant. This is not a Toyota Prius.


But then at supercruise, you have all 3 engines at max military thrust. So yes, the middle-engine would be optimised for supercruise speed with a lower-bypass ratio.

However, given that the J-36 will be spending the vast majority of its time at subsonic speeds (7+hours out of a 8+ hour sortie), it simply makes sense to optimise some engines for subsonic speeds and a higher-bypass ratio.
It is not a given. We don't have a spec sheet saying that, and judging by the three engines and the aggressive wing sweep and finness/aspect ratios compared to other flying wings such as the B-2 and B-21, I'd say there is a very good chance this aircraft would spend more time in supersonic regimes than usual.


And remember that separated engines are ejecting their airflow into the surrounding air anyway, which has a near-zero? relative velocity. So I don't understand the big issue with the middle engine ejecting air with a much lower speed differential
The real problem is the third engine cannot produce thrust at supersonic speeds while still consuming fuel. It will produce drag whether it's on or off. That means that engine is just dead weight. If we reverse the situation to to slower speeds where the other two engines are producing too much kinetic energy at the nozzle, we are still suffering from low propulsive efficiency, so no matter how you spin this, you will end up with either the low bpr engine or the higher bpr engine not being efficient at the speed in question, which is why I think it is better to optimize the aircraft's body and its engines for one single speed, or have the same adaptive cycle engine, not two different engines.


If we're talking about a MTOW of 55 tonnes, my gut tells me the fuel tanks can carry at least 20 tonnes.

My guess is that this is sufficient for a notional requirement to operate to the 2IC, as that implies a cruise range of 8000km+
According to Tinghua University, the J-20 can do 2000km with 12 tons of fuel, which amounts to 6l/km with two engines. Taking in the assumptions I made regarding speed and drag being identical to the J-20, the J-36 would still need 18 tons of fuel to do 3000km, but the J-36 is larger and heavier and may or may not go faster than the J-20 and it has one more engine drinking fuel, so 20 tons would unlikely be enough to make that 3000km trip and back, unless the three engines the J-36 uses consume around as much fuel as the WS-10s on the J-20, which I also find unlikely.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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According to Tinghua University, the J-20 can do 2000km with 12 tons of fuel, which amounts to 6l/km with two engines. Taking in the assumptions I made regarding speed and drag being identical to the J-20, the J-36 would still need 18 tons of fuel to do 3000km, but the J-36 is larger and heavier and may or may not go faster than the J-20 and it has one more engine drinking fuel, so 20 tons would unlikely be enough to make that 3000km trip and back, unless the three engines the J-36 uses consume around as much fuel as the WS-10s on the J-20, which I also find unlikely.
flywing design has less drag. It will also be using newer generation of engine that will be more efficient. So, it is unlikely to need 50% more fuel per km than J-20.

I would still say it can carry more than 20t of fuel though.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I was talking about the engine being operational and generating drag, not turned off. The engine wouldn't be generating useful energy while turned off at all. Just take a moment to think about it. You are talking about operating a gas turbine as if it were a wind turbine, so the air would have to run through the numerous compressor stages, then the combustors, then the turbine stages, then through the convergent-divergent nozzle, and while it does all of that, it would be operating the gearbox and running the generator and its constant drive unit (the IDG) and oil pump and sending oil to all axial and radial load bearings, which is a process that requires a gigantic amount of energy. The passive airflow would need to do this outside of the compressor map spec and the compressor would be in the surge region due to insufficient air. I could go on and on explaining other complications such as clogging up the fuel injectors with dirt due to them being idle, or the oil and it's cooler being too cold to lubricate properly (if they even do run), or the bleed or secondary air pressures and their valves and the anti-icing system that relies on these pressures and valves, but I think you get the idea of why a gas turbine cannot be operated as a wind turbine. In the real world, the engine would be stalled and air won't even enter the intake and would instead flow around it into the path of least resistance, especially since this is a mixed flow turbofan.

The other issue is having two different engines complicates logistic and maintenance, which is a wasteful solution that the Chinese are not known to entertain.

To summarize, I don't subscribe to the third engine shutting off at specific speeds or being a dedicated electrical power plant. This is not a Toyota Prius.



It is not a given. We don't have a spec sheet saying that, and judging by the three engines and the aggressive wing sweep and finness/aspect ratios compared to other flying wings such as the B-2 and B-21, I'd say there is a very good chance this aircraft would spend more time in supersonic regimes than usual.



The real problem is the third engine cannot produce thrust at supersonic speeds while still consuming fuel. It will produce drag whether it's on or off. That means that engine is just dead weight. If we reverse the situation to to slower speeds where the other two engines are producing too much kinetic energy at the nozzle, we are still suffering from low propulsive efficiency, so no matter how you spin this, you will end up with either the low bpr engine or the higher bpr engine not being efficient at the speed in question, which is why I think it is better to optimize the aircraft's body and its engines for one single speed, or have the same adaptive cycle engine, not two different engines.



According to Tinghua University, the J-20 can do 2000km with 12 tons of fuel, which amounts to 6l/km with two engines. Taking in the assumptions I made regarding speed and drag being identical to the J-20, the J-36 would still need 18 tons of fuel to do 3000km, but the J-36 is larger and heavier and may or may not go faster than the J-20 and it has one more engine drinking fuel, so 20 tons would unlikely be enough to make that 3000km trip and back, unless the three engines the J-36 uses consume around as much fuel as the WS-10s on the J-20, which I also find unlikely.
Just want to appreciate the numbers and scientific reasoning. Very good explanation of why the 3rd engine should be the same as other engines.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
flywing design has less drag. It will also be using newer generation of engine that will be more efficient. So, it is unlikely to need 50% more fuel per km than J-20.

I would still say it can carry more than 20t of fuel though.
This depends on multiple factors. Is it area ruled as aggressively as the J-20? Is the reduction in drag going to be utilized to increase the range, speed, IR reduction or is it going to be traveling fast enough to consume more fuel than its predecessors? The amount of fuel it will carry will ultimately depend on how many sensors and armaments they want to pack into this beast, but I agree with you on the fuel part. Those big wings do look very thirsty. Give it more time and we will have more info to play around with on the thread.


Just want to appreciate the numbers and scientific reasoning. Very good explanation of why the 3rd engine should be the same as other engines.
Glad you like it.
 
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