Can China wage "small wars"?

isthvan said:

If we talk about Darfur or Ruanda kind of situation where you have locals driving around armed Toyotas and killing ethnic minority they are “irregular combatants" and you bomb them to Hell if you want… But to bomb angry mob like in Solomon’s would be considered attacking civilian population…
If that would not be the case you would have bombs fouling every time riot starts… Denmark would bomb mobs in Syria; French would bomb mobs in Paris etc

Click to expand...

I don't think analogy works. The mobs in Paris (if this is what you're referring to), are protesting wages! The mobs in Syria were not going around targetting a specific ethnic minority in their country. They're just saying "we're angry."

Trust me, there are MANY countries in the world where they absolutely hate the Chinese. I think just about everywhere where there is a big population of Chinese, many of the locals dislike them.

When an angry mob starts ethnic cleansing Chinese people (like in Indonesia), I see no reason why they should be considered "civilians." They are committing an atrocity, and China must step in and help the overseas Chinese!

The closest analogy I can think of is the state of Israel going after people who deliberately kill jews in other countries. Usually they do it by having Mossad assassinate. A Tu-160 Blackjack strike into the heart of an angry mob trying to ethnic cleanse Chinese, I think, is justified.

Some valid points above, but I would also like to note that the definition of what constitutes a "Chinese national" isn't very clear.

For instance in Indonesia many of the "Chinese Nationals" you are talking about basically have been there for many generations. They may look "oriental" (meaning looking like people from China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and not Indian, Pakistani, Vietnamese... you get the drift. I just don't want to use the phrase "Asian") but they're basically Indonesians.

That's not to say there isn't some animosity or tension between "Real Indonesians" and "Chinese Indonesians" however one must question what the duties of a government are. In this case the Chinese Indonesians have been in Indonesia... well, nearly as long as Black people have been in the States. Where do you draw the line? And why? Because they have similiar external characteristics? Or because they immigrated to Indonesia from your country several hundreds of years ago?

This has been a topic of interest for me, especially after I visited Indonesia last summer. We frequented with some "Chinese" Indonesian kids, and I couldn't really note any affiliation to "The Motherland". They spoke Indonesian, many of them didn't know how to speak Chinese (courtesy of the recently lifted ban by the Indonesian government) and as far as I can tell their home was Indonesia.

This was even more strongly apparent because our job was to teach them about life and language in Taiwan because the government had funded a project to help a group of them go to college in Taiwan, and return to Indonesia. Externally we all looked alike, but it was obvious where their loyalties lied. So it's hard to say whether China has any jurisdiction over people who left their country hundreds of years ago.

Roger604 said:

I don't think analogy works. The mobs in Paris (if this is what you're referring to), are protesting wages! The mobs in Syria were not going around targetting a specific ethnic minority in their country. They're just saying "we're angry."

Trust me, there are MANY countries in the world where they absolutely hate the Chinese. I think just about everywhere where there is a big population of Chinese, many of the locals dislike them.

When an angry mob starts ethnic cleansing Chinese people (like in Indonesia), I see no reason why they should be considered "civilians." They are committing an atrocity, and China must step in and help the overseas Chinese!

The closest analogy I can think of is the state of Israel going after people who deliberately kill jews in other countries. Usually they do it by having Mossad assassinate. A Tu-160 Blackjack strike into the heart of an angry mob trying to ethnic cleanse Chinese, I think, is justified.

Click to expand...

Roger I admit that my analogy was wrong (even if some Dutch and other Europeans were killed or abducted during cartoon riots in Muslim countries) but only because I misunderstood what you are trying to say. I have thought of scenario were you have riot that is gone to hell and civilians looting shops and attacking minorities and not Hutu – Tutsi kind of scenario which you describe… But even in situations you describe military intervention in form of police action like Sampan Vikings scenario is only correct thing to do… By doing so you are protecting your nationals and restoring low and order… Bombing mobs would bring only negative publicity and would only bring more suffering to Chinese population in that country… Mobs would just retaliate on them…

I would add to that that the Mossad analagy is also useless for a Mob riot. This is an infrastructure you set up to target politically/religously motivated groups who are driving the targting of your citizens. In other words this to combat deliberate and directed attacks.

If such groups do exist, the precdents set by the war against terror is probably good enough for China to set its special ops forces to eliminating them. Although to be honest, if such groups existed I would be surprised if this was not happening anyway.

This of course is not for Unfriendly Govts, Asassination would be very counter productive, botched Asassination a Diplomatic disaster.

Zergling is also right, A country only has a duty to its own citizens, I think a commitment to a greater China in this way would unsettle a lot of "Greater Chinese" and a lot of the countries of which they were citizens.

China could hardly interfere with that. If they are able to, just to a limited extent. Take note that many Overseas Chinese are not Chinese citizens; therefore, not protected by the Chinese laws. But eventhrough China don't have the jurisdiction and obligation to do so, doesn't imply China should let these discrimiation actions happened over and over again. Through people suggested that it was wrong for China to help Oversea Chinese, since they are not Chinese citizens are simply too ignorant.

So how do you suggest Indonesia Chinese to protect themselves, let's face it. The Indonesian government is unbelievably corrupt and whenever the economy is doing badly in Indonesia, people look for scape goats. The Chinese community is a handy scapegoat because some of them are very rich, tend to keep to themselves. There are also religious differences as well, namely between Indonesia's large Muslim population and the Chinese minority.

And so, whenever the government looks bad in the eyes of the native Indonesians, they deflect all the blame onto the rich Chinese. And guess what, the average poor Indonesian believes them and then riots and violence happens. So even poor ethnic Chinese get attacked.

Hi Kyli

There is a big difference between help and military intervention.

I have heard of the Emperor of China I never heard of the Emperor of the Chinese and this is the scale of difference you seem to be suggesting.

If a National Govt is waging a campaign against its Chinese minority, then yes you should expect China to direct its displeasure against the offending govt, you should also expect the world community UN etc to be vigourous in its condemnation.

Otherwise, without a Govt directing the attacks, you are back to a Police Action.

SampanViking said:

On that note, and maybe dangerously, I am surprised nobody has mentioned Nepal, which as an Ally of China, bordering a sensitive area, could be a prime candidate for a Police Action.

This could happen as a last ditch invitation by the King in order to retain his position, or after the event if the whole country descended into chaos.

Click to expand...

I wrote about that event, hypothetically, in the PLAN chokepoints thread, except it was India intervening to prevent chaos and Maoist takeover. In my hypothetical scenario, the Chinese decided they did not want India to succed in its venture and assited the Maoists, starting a Sino-Indian war.

About ethnic unrest, I think it is a situaiton-specific sort of thing. But if China wants to send a message that it is a true world and regional player, as well as gain some international legitamacy, then intervening in a poor country to end ethinc/political strife is a good move. Think about it. Only rich, Western countries are the ones you see intervening in other countries "for their own good". By doing that, China helps to establish its self as a member of the international community every bit as legitimate as the US, Britain or France.

KYli said:

Through people suggested that it was wrong for China to help Oversea Chinese, since they are not Chinese citizens are simply too ignorant.

So how do you suggest Indonesia Chinese to protect themselves, let's face it. The Indonesian government is unbelievably corrupt and whenever the economy is doing badly in Indonesia, people look for scape goats. The Chinese community is a handy scapegoat because some of them are very rich, tend to keep to themselves. There are also religious differences as well, namely between Indonesia's large Muslim population and the Chinese minority.

And so, whenever the government looks bad in the eyes of the native Indonesians, they deflect all the blame onto the rich Chinese. And guess what, the average poor Indonesian believes them and then riots and violence happens. So even poor ethnic Chinese get attacked.

Click to expand...

Valid points, however what I was addressing was that where does the Chinese government draw the line? I wasn't suggesting that the Chinese government should simply ignore the plight of oppressed people around the world, but one must wonder how far obligations go, and why. Should China protect (and possibly intervene in other country's internal affairs) to protect 5th or 6th generation Chinese immigrants? 4th generation? 3rd generation? Are they Chinese simply because they look "Oriental"? Or because of where their ancestors came from? If so, I can argue a pretty strong slippery slope...

Hi Sampanviking and Hi Zerling

since both of you are asking the same question, I would answer them in one post.

I am not suggesting or implying that what happened in the Solomon Islands incident needed military intervention, or Chinese government should do otherwise. Actually what China has done so far, was the best solution on this situation. I totally don't have problem with it, and there is no dispute on this point of view.

But I do disagree that China could not do more than what they had done, I think there are many different categories of ethnics conflict, and quick frankly what had happened in Solomon Islands was only minor incident.

1. What happened in Solomon Islands was just native residents turned their hatred and dissatification toward Chinese, and the government did not protected Chinese or they had the ability to do so. This in term only needed diplomacy and political pressure to make the Solomon islands government to be more responsible and do more to protect Chinese. And China could also send in civilian airplane to pick up ethnic Chinese, so what Chinese government was doing is what it should be.

2. What happened in Indonesia was totally difference, the riots and discrimation were wide spead. And the government didn't protected Chinese, they also tried to blame Chinese as the problems of their failed policies and corruption. The Indonesia government also somewhat encourage the natives to attack Chinese Indonesians, as a result chinese were targeted of riots and many were killed. This in term will need more actions from chinese government. I would not suggest a military intervention, but China could send in their navy or military to get the Chinese Indoesnians out of the country if diplomacy does not work.

3. The last one will be ethnic genocide of overseas Chinese, which should call upon military intervention if necessary. I knew that these were overseas descendants of Chinese migrants are citizens of another country, but the relationship between them and China is special enough for the government of China to intervene politically for these people on the basis on their ancestry.

But as citizens of Indonesia or whatever, these overseas Chinese are nationals of their respective countries. If the government China intervenes, it should be on the basis of them as human beings.

Of course the intervention should only occurs when there are no longer any alternatives left within the situation. As the state that fails to protect it's citizens, the first thing Chinese governments should do is to send in the helicopters and Warships to bring out Chinese. It didn't matter whether they were already citizens of the country, so long as they were Chinese, they will be lift out. If the country refused to accept peaceful intervention to let Chinese out of the country and continued to killed Chinese, then China should call upon the UN to moblize their force to launch an attack on the respective country in small scale to demotrate that they were serious. As long as the genocide stopped, China should not be overly extend their persent in the respective state. For the overseas Chinese China should ensure their safty before they left, or if it is impossible china could always take them back.

regarding to the chinese evacuate the chinese indonesian, it's pointless because no chinese indonesian would go to china. the motherland. and become to the slave of chinese, while they live like king indonesia.

the chinese indonesian had lived prosperately with the indonesian natives for centuries. the chinese were target in the recent riots a few years back, were from jealousy of chinese business success.

militarily indonesia is a tough beat for the chinese. indonesia do have a quiet impressive navy crack with.