Behind the China Missile Hype

NikeX

Banned Idiot
... That would just be adding another layer of complexity because you'll have to get the missile to where the CVBG is anyway...
.

All you would have to do is get NEAR the CVN with the torpedo concept. The DF-21D is looking to score a direct hit on the carrier which is much harder

---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

...
We were talking about attacking the DF-21D's C4ISR network, not attacking the RVs. Do you even know that you're changing the goalposts? :confused:

The goal is to protect the CVN. What better way to do it than by killing the attacking RVs?



... Of course using stars to increase accuracy is one way of going about it -- it's one of the oldest, among long range ballistic missiles. My point was why did you ask the question if you knew the answer in the first place...

Stella navigation is useless for engagement of a moving target. Like the CVN

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

The same way Iskander/pershing ii's optical and active radar works. The point is that those two vastly different types of terminal guidance does work during high mach re entry. Logic tells me other types like MMW, anti radiation etc should work as well but that's another discussion.

Neither the Russian missile nor Pershing 2 are tasked with engaging a moving target. Hence the complex kill chain of the DF-21D

And the fact that the target, the CVN, is moving is the reason the Chinese have been unable to demonstrate a successful test

They are stumped and are wondering how to deal with the problem
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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All you would have to do is get NEAR the CVN with the torpedo concept. The DF-21D is looking to score a direct hit on the carrier which is much harder



The goal is to protect the CVN. What better way to do it than by killing the attacking RVs?

You leave yourself a smaller "buffer" than if you went to destroy the relay satellites/degrade C4ISR network first, and then still had BMD.

It's like if you defended against cruise missiles only with ciws without large area air defence.

Stella navigation is useless for engagement of a moving target. Like the CVN

...
1: It's not useless, because the CVN can only move a certain distance from missile firing to re entry.
2: That isn't to say I'm postulating stellar guidance as the only form of guidance. I've already mentioned mid course correction/guidance/data relay satellites/terminal guidance.
3: You did say "there are stellar updates to name one method", implying you knew of others as well. Thus I wonder why you challeneged someone else to explain something you already knew. but whatever, we all have our quirks.

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Neither the Russian missile nor Pershing 2 are tasked with engaging a moving target. Hence the complex kill chain of the DF-21D

Omg here you are moving goal posts again!
My mentioning of pershing 2 and iskander were only in relation to TERMINAL GUIDANCE part of DF-21D. You kept saying how DF-21Ds terminal guidance woudl bug out from plasma/re entry, I showed pershing 2 and iskander demosntrated terminal guidance works perfectly well thank you very much.

I never claimed the russian or american missile were proof of engaging moving targets or whatever, only that they were proof terminal guidance didn't suffer from high mach re entry!!11one1

And the fact that the target, the CVN, is moving is the reason the Chinese have been unable to demonstrate a successful test

They are stumped and are wondering how to deal with the problem

Lol.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
You leave yourself a smaller "buffer" than if you went to destroy the relay satellites/degrade C4ISR network first, and then still had BMD.

It's like if you defended against cruise missiles only with ciws without large area air defence.

Anywhere along the kill chain the DF-21 is vulnerable. Disrupt any part of the DF-12D kill chain and the RV misses the CVN. It is too complex.


...
1: It's not useless, because the CVN can only move a certain distance from missile firing to re entry.
2: That isn't to say I'm postulating stellar guidance as the only form of guidance. I've already mentioned mid course correction/guidance/data relay satellites/terminal guidance.
3: You did say "there are stellar updates to name one method", implying you knew of others as well. Thus I wonder why you challeneged someone else to explain something you already knew. but whatever, we all have our quirks.

Still one major vulnerability of the DF-21 is its reliance on offboard sensors for targeting.

I still say that the ionized gases of the hot plasma will prevent DF-21 from communicating with these offboard sensors

When that happens DF-21 misses the CVN

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

In order for DF-21 to be a threat to the CVN, EVERYTHING must go right and perform in a timely manner.

Everything

Since we all know that everything does not usually go right, even under the best of conditions, DF-21 is a weapons system that is interesting but not viable
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Anywhere along the kill chain the DF-21 is vulnerable. Disrupt any part of the DF-12D kill chain and the RV misses the CVN. It is too complex.

Well the word "vulnerable" is quite all encompassing...


Still one major vulnerability of the DF-21 is its reliance on offboard sensors for targeting.

I still say that the ionized gases of the hot plasma will prevent DF-21 from communicating with these offboard sensors

When that happens DF-21 misses the CVN

TDRSS, data relay satellites etc will overcome the plasma problem as shown as the space shuttle etc. And in the terminal phase where your plasma problem will be most prevalent it will be the terminal guidance taking over which I've shown again and again to be unaffected by high mach re entry

In order for DF-21 to be a threat to the CVN, EVERYTHING must go right and perform in a timely manner.

Everything

Since we all know that everything does not usually go right, even under the best of conditions, DF-21 is a weapons system that is interesting but not viable

You could say that for almost all large doctrines or weapons. CVBG, BMD can all be said that their "every" component must go right and perform in a timely manner...
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Oh come on now. You do not have to be a member of the ASBM team to explain to us all the concepts for updating the inertial guidance system of a ballistic missile. There are stellar updates to name just one method. Dongfeng 31/A uses this method to improve accuracy

I'm not an expert and you certainly aren't since you can't even get the basics right. And look how everyone has run circles around you. I already know what you're doing. You can't admit how absurd your arguments are that you just go onto something else hoping people will forget your failed arguments previously. Remember how this all started with your argument that because they used smoke tactics back in 1917 means they work today on weapons that didn't exist then? Really if that was the answer to everything, you wouldn't have to argue anything else even if the Chinese showed to you personally that the ASBM worked.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
i'm sure china has defense against attacks. but how effective are against US strike and how many system does DF21 need, the more system required to support DF21, the more chance that system will be disabled by US. its matter of probability. and right now the odd is in favor of US due to its overall combat ability and equipments.

Nothing but personal opinion without any proof of evidence. US has it share of failure Like the SBIRS system that I post it. F35 over budget, too long of development, Even F22 Oxygen System is prone to failure necessitating grounding of the whole fleet.


some system require less support some require more. the more it require the more chance that part of system will be disable. if we look at overall capability of US force vs china, the odd is favoring US. if DF21 require OTH, Sub, satelite and other system, then disable any of these will reduce the DF21 threat signficanlly. in this case china has to spread its resource to cover all these system in order for DF21 to work. properly.

I believe they have built in redundancy, robustness, evolutionary, counter counter measure in the system. So you bet it will work
 

Lezt

Junior Member
some system require less support some require more. the more it require the more chance that part of system will be disable. if we look at overall capability of US force vs china, the odd is favoring US. if DF21 require OTH, Sub, satelite and other system, then disable any of these will reduce the DF21 threat signficanlly. in this case china has to spread its resource to cover all these system in order for DF21 to work. properly.

I don't think this is a China vs. USA debate and I doubt anyone is doubting that the US is militarily stronger.

But likewise for the ABM system to work, you need early launch detection systems, tracking systems, C4IR systems, interception systems, ships, bases and other systems.

In any case, we know that before the US destroy the Chinese systems, the DF21 will be of normal combat effectiveness. That means, once war starts, CVBGs within combat range of the DF21 and other long range cruise missile can be attacked with normal combat effectiveness. I don't think China will sit idlely by for the US to pick apart her strike systems.

How will the USA destroy the Chinese systems? any thing that can launch attacks into China will be within China's strike range. US bases which can launch IRBM or tomahawk at china can be hit by Chinese IRBMs and this is true about any ships too. US satellite are also vurnable to Chinese ASAT just as Chinese ones are to American ASAT. In short, in any major shooting war, it will be very likely that the combat ranges will be significantly reduced; and hence American dominance in High Tech not as prominent.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
My biggest problem with the ASBM is the fact that the target is MOVING. Even though the carrier is only moving at 30kt, the warhead is at around 12,000 km/h. So the margin for error is extremely small. I mean seriously small. Some of the examples I posted Pershing-II, Agni-RV, Topol-M are nuclear armed and for fixed-targets.

This whole ASBM idea sounds exceptionally complex. It could work if everything goes well I guess, but aren't the better ways to hit a carrier?

Plus: Officially is there an ASBM? I think all the PRC said was "They have potential game changer"....
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
I don't think this is a China vs. USA debate and I doubt anyone is doubting that the US is militarily stronger.

But likewise for the ABM system to work, you need early launch detection systems, tracking systems, C4IR systems, interception systems, ships, bases and other systems.

In any case, we know that before the US destroy the Chinese systems, the DF21 will be of normal combat effectiveness. That means, once war starts, CVBGs within combat range of the DF21 and other long range cruise missile can be attacked with normal combat effectiveness. I don't think China will sit idlely by for the US to pick apart her strike systems.

How will the USA destroy the Chinese systems? any thing that can launch attacks into China will be within China's strike range. US bases which can launch IRBM or tomahawk at china can be hit by Chinese IRBMs and this is true about any ships too. US satellite are also vurnable to Chinese ASAT just as Chinese ones are to American ASAT. In short, in any major shooting war, it will be very likely that the combat ranges will be significantly reduced; and hence American dominance in High Tech not as prominent.

There's always the far off idea of creating dumby fleets to trick the 2nd Artillery Corp :v: (or does the PLAN operate the DF-21D?)
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
My biggest problem with the ASBM is the fact that the target is MOVING. Even though the carrier is only moving at 30kt, the warhead is at around 12,000 km/h. So the margin for error is extremely small. I mean seriously small. Some of the examples I posted Pershing-II, Agni-RV, Topol-M are nuclear armed and for fixed-targets.

Varying warheads, especially submunition type, would allow for a larger margin of error/CEP.
But yes, obviously hitting a moving target is different to a fixed target. But terminal guidance in high mach re entry vehicles has proven effective/viable (against fixed targets, yes), so the theory would be to optimize your sensor for moving targets and give your warhead some MaRV capability to home in on the moving target. Easier said than done I suppose, but it's hardly ground breaking technology -- it's only tying up existing technology in a new way.

I mean, supersonic AShMs work with their active radar seekers against moving targets, right? AShBM will operate at a higher speed of course. But where's the break off point speed of the projectile which will render the active seeker ineffective?

And there's also the interesting question of how far the carrier can get with its 30 knots, when the missile's terminal phase begins with its own mach 10. Basically how long will it take for the missile to reach "sea level" from where the terminal phase begins and what distance can the carrier cross in that short time and whether that distance can effectively avoid the missile. Therefore the terminal guidance I imagine would be used with MaRV to compensate for that slight distance which the carrier can cross. Because the missile's moving so fast and the carrier so comparably slow, I imagine only a slight change in the missile's "angle"(?) needs to be compensated by the terminal guidance/MaRV. Yes, mach 10 is fast but it's a hell of a lot slower than the speed of light from the warhead's sensor (say, active radar).

(inb4 the whole plasma problem thing. We've solved that about one page ago, so don't bring it up again plox!!)

This whole ASBM idea sounds exceptionally complex. It could work if everything goes well I guess, but aren't the better ways to hit a carrier?

Yes, but none of the existing ways provide as long or fast a reach, nor are they as easy to defend against imho. Long range super sonic AShMs is possibly one way of going about long range fast response anti carrier duties, but most modern air defence systems are suited to defending against sub sonic and super sonic saturation attacks whereas ABM is a less tested and thus a "more vulnerable" system. Maybe in future the PLA will adopt a hypersonic long range cruise missile to replace AShBM, but at the moment AShBM has the prime "strategic" deterrence role.

And remember AShBM is just one component of the A2AD strategy. YJ-62, 022, SSKs, JH-7/A are all weapons along with AShBM in this doctrine.

Plus: Officially is there an ASBM? I think all the PRC said was "They have potential game changer"....

Well there was this:
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While there has been debate over the actual legitimacy of the range quoted, the fact that general chin bingde said
“The missile is still undergoing experimental testing and will be used as a defensive weapon when it is successfully developed, not an offensive one,” says Chen. “It is a high-tech weapon and we face many difficulties in getting funding, advanced technologies and high-quality personnel, which are all underlying reasons why it is hard to develop this.”
when asked about AShBM, basically admits its existence.

Whether the challenges he stated are actually serious bottlenecks, or just a continuation of the whole "hide our true capabilities" doctrine is up for discussion. But the weapon has been admitted to exist by the PLA. I think escobar posted an excerpt of the actual interview with Chen Bingde on the subject, if anyone cares to find it.
 
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