Behind the China Missile Hype

i.e.

Senior Member
see reply in Underlines

How do you update the inertial guidance to hit a moving target? Your answer please.

Same way any missile that uses inertial then terminal guidance, i.e. Harpoon C802, AIM-120, R-77, PL-12, etc etc, Inertial system gives a reference in fixed point in space to fly to, midway datalink update that point in space. You lack of knowledge in these area does not preclude these capability.
Btw, US prompt global strike that proppses to uses a missile derived off a SLBM. would offer similar capability.

With the hot plasma surrounding the DF-21D RV how is this accomplished?


How does the DF-21D RV see through the hot plasma to detect the CVN and begin the terminal phase?

You should dig up a CGI of Space shuttle reentry, that would be more fun.


Again, how does the DF-21D RV communicate with the offboard sensors while surrounded by a hot plasma like this? How?

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---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------



During the critical period of DF-21 flight it does. The terminal phase



Pershing 2 uses another kind of radar guidance and Pershing 2 is engaging a FIXED target. Your example does not apply in the case of the DF-21D attempting to engage a MOVING target, the CVN

What does engaging a moving or a fixed target has anything to do with the simple fact how Pershing 2's radar apparently penetrates the supposily impenetrable plasma field that you describe?

Oh and Pershing 2 used a NUCLEAR warhead. DF-21 is suppose to use a conventional explosive warhead

What does a nuclear or a conventional has anything to do with the simple fact how Pershing 2's radar apparently penetrates the supposily impenetrable plasma field that you describeWarhead

W85 nuclear warhead: 5 kilotons of TNT (21 TJ) to 80 kilotons of TNT (330 TJ)


...Radar area correlator
The highly accurate terminal guidance technique used by the Pershing II RV was radar area correlation, using a Goodyear Aerospace active radar guidance system. This technique compared live radar video return to prestored reference scenes of the target area and determined RV position errors with respect to its trajectory and target location. These position errors were used to update the inertial guidance system, which in turn sent commands to the vane control system to guide the RV to the target.



During rentry phase of the flight plasma backout will occur. There will be no pictures or datalink beamed anywhere. Physics prevents datalinks



So DF-21D will have to be aligned with data relay satellites? Not likely to happen. Try again

I don't knw what you mean by that, Those TDRSS satellites are in geostationary orbits, which means that are above a fixed point above the sky.
gives a coverage about half of earth surface. those TDRSS actually are not aligned with any reentry trajectory, it is impossible. they are always invaritablly on earth's equatorial plane.


I give you points for at least realizing that plasma blocks communications during re-entry of DF-21D RV

Your "Hot Plasma = No Radar No communication" theory has been shot to peices by NASA and TDRSS and Iskander and Prompt Global Strike.

Next.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

My biggest problem with the ASBM is the fact that the target is MOVING. Even though the carrier is only moving at 30kt, the warhead is at around 12,000 km/h. So the margin for error is extremely small. I mean seriously small. Some of the examples I posted Pershing-II, Agni-RV, Topol-M are nuclear armed and for fixed-targets.

This whole ASBM idea sounds exceptionally complex. It could work if everything goes well I guess, but aren't the better ways to hit a carrier?

Plus: Officially is there an ASBM? I think all the PRC said was "They have potential game changer"....

you forgot that war head can slow down. ;)

actually a warhead can use its fins to change its attitude and generate lift. thus slow down at same time coming into a rather non-ballisic trajectory...

actually that's how soyuz capsule and China's Shenzhou Capsules slow down, they come in tilted.

if you dig up a picture of Shenzhou Capsules you will also see some small fixed fins. that's for generate stability for keeping that attitude during the reentry.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Ah....

I can talk about Shenzhou Soyuz all day long.

communication black out actually occures only in certain segments of re-entry. vehicle geometry plays a big part too.

One concept some people have looked at to finally beat the "communication blackout" is trail an attenna and using TDRSS.
shuttle was fortunate that althought the vehicle dynamics does not allow for reduced plasma, it does have a big verticle fin that was mostly sticking out the the field.

reentry.JPG
from
PLASMA EFFECTS ON APOLLO RE-ENTRY COMMUNICATION
Richard Lehnert and Bernard Rosenbaum
Goddard Space Flight Center
SUMMARY
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Ah....

I can talk about Shenzhou Soyuz all day long.

communication black out actually occures only in certain segments of re-entry. vehicle geometry plays a big part too.

One concept some people have looked at to finally beat the "communication blackout" is trail an attenna and using TDRSS.
shuttle was fortunate that althought the vehicle dynamics does not allow for reduced plasma, it does have a big verticle fin that was mostly sticking out the the field.

View attachment 6164
from
PLASMA EFFECTS ON APOLLO RE-ENTRY COMMUNICATION
Richard Lehnert and Bernard Rosenbaum
Goddard Space Flight Center
SUMMARY

Ah.... nice... Very interesting where the black-out occurs. It also only says an "S-Band" black-out. Are there other wave length that are still usable?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
All those skeptic who list thing that make it impossible for missile to receive update and search for target during reentry should read this .All the BS about the impossibility of hitting a moving target. Carrier and tank move about the same speed 45km/hr but Carrier is 300 m vs tank 4 m much easier. Their argument is shot off
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The Iskander ballistic missile is superior to its predecessor, the Oka. The Iskander-M system is equipped with two solid-propellant single-stage guided missiles, model 9M723K1. Each one is controlled throughout the entire flight path and fitted with a nonseparable warhead. Each missile in the launch carrier vehicle can be independently targeted in a matter of seconds. The mobility of the Iskander launch platform makes a launch difficult to prevent.[4]

Targets can be located not only by satellite and aircraft but also by a conventional intelligence center, or by a soldier who directs artillery fire. Targets can also be located from aerial photos scanned into the computer. The missiles can be re-targeted during flight in the case of engaging mobile targets.[4] Another unique feature of Iskander-M (not Iskander-E) is the optically guided warhead, which can also be controlled by encrypted radio transmission, including such from AWACS or UAV. The electro-optical guidance system provides a self-homing capability. The missile's on-board computer receives images of the target, then locks onto the target with its sight and descends towards it at supersonic speed.

In flight, the missile follows a quasi-ballistic path, performing evasive maneuvers in the terminal phase of flight and releasing decoys in order to penetrate missile defense systems. The missile never leaves the atmosphere as it follows a relatively flat trajectory.

The Russian Iskander-M cruises at hypersonic speed of 2100–2600 m/s (Mach 6–7) at a height of 50 km. The Iskander-M weighs 4615 kg, carries a warhead of 710–800 kg, has a range of 400–480 km, and achieves a CEP (Circular error probable) of 5–7 meters. During flight it can maneuver at different altitudes and trajectories and can pull up to 20 to 30 G to evade anti-ballistic missiles. For example, in one of the trajectory modes it can dive at the target at 90 degrees at the rate of 700–800 m/s performing anti-ABM maneuvers.[3][5]

Iskander has achieved accuracy, range and reliability (ability to penetrate defences) that constitutes an alternative approach to precision bombing for air forces that cannot expect to launch bombing or cruise missile fire missions reliably in the face of superior enemy fighters and air defenses. Training and competence requirements are much lower than for normal air force assets like a fighter bomber squadron utilizing guided bombs.
 

escobar

Brigadier
when asked about AShBM, basically admits its existence.

Whether the challenges he stated are actually serious bottlenecks, or just a continuation of the whole "hide our true capabilities" doctrine is up for discussion. But the weapon has been admitted to exist by the PLA. I think escobar posted an excerpt of the actual interview with Chen Bingde on the subject, if anyone cares to find it.

Here DF-21D ASBM Deployed, but China Daily Probably Incorrect in Claiming “2,700km Range”; Gen. Chen Bingde Never Said That
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The 2011 ROC National Defense Report has confirmed that “a small quantity of” DF-21D ASBMs “were produced and deployed in 2010,” thereby (in the report’s view) “increasing the difficulty of military maneuvers in the region for the U.S. Army.”

Now a key question remains: what are the missile’s specific capabilities? Unfortunately, open sources do not yet offer conclusive information on this subject. In fact, a Chinese state media source has confused the situation with what appears to be mis-applied datapoint.

On 11 July 2011 PLA Chief of General Staff General Chen Bingde became the first Chinese government official to confirm publicly that China is developing the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM). According to an English-language China Daily article, the missile has “a maximum range of 2,700 kilometers” (1,678 miles). Of note, General Chen did not in any way ascribe a range or other specific missile performance parameters at the press conference. Indeed, an official in his position would be unlikely to do so. This was the China Daily’s own (likely erroneous) inject. China Daily was probably citing the DF-21A’s range, which SinoDefence and Wikipedia both list as 2,700 km. The reporters and editors at China Daily most likely mistook the DF-21A range figure for that of the DF-21D.

Here is a translation of General Chen’s statement:

Q: “I’m with the Associated Press and I have a question for General Chen. …There’s been much speculation about the operational readiness of the Dong-Feng 21-D, the so-called “carrier-killer” missile…. Can you give us some up-to-date information about these programs….”

GEN. CHEN: “Thank you for – (inaudible) – your questions to me. As for DF 21-D, in our meeting, Admiral Mullen talked about it. As for this type of weapons system, it is still under research-and-development process. It is not equipped yet. Even though we – if – even though if, in the future, we are successful in research and development of this kind of weapons system, it will, and remain, be a system for defense. And I expect that Chinese scientists will make some contributions in this aspect.

However, for all kinds of high-tech weapons systems, as far as the research and development is concerned, that is not an easy thing to do, because it requires a huge amount of resources, timings, technologies and so on. …”

General Chen addressed the topic of Chinese ASBM development by telling Chinese reporters that it was one of the issues that he had discussed with Admiral Mullen. He took pains to emphasize, however, that China’s ASBM is “still in the research stage” (还处于研究阶段), and “has not yet achieved operational capability” (尚未形成作战能力). Specifically, “the DF-21D is undergoing research, development, and testing, has not developed into an operational capability [or developing into capability is not an issue at present]” (东风21D正在研究, 正在科研, 在试验之中, 还没有形成能力问题). Xinhua paraphrases General Chen as explaining that he “hopes Chinese experts can contribute in this regard, but this sort of high-technology advanced weapon is very difficult to bring to maturity” (希望中国的专家们能在这方面有所贡献, 但是这种高新技术的尖端武器很难成熟). It quotes him directly once again as stressing that doing so “requires funding inputs, advanced technology, and high-quality talented personnel; these are all fundamental factors constraining its development” (要经费投入, 要先进的技术, 还要有高素质的人才, 这都是制约它发展的根本因素). The English-language China Daily article renders this as “It is a high-tech weapon and we face many difficulties in getting funding, advanced technologies and high-quality personnel, which are all underlying reasons why it is hard to develop this.” Specific documentation for these and other quotations is provided in the articles appended below.

Additionally, in YouTube and other footage of the 11 July 2011 press briefing with his closest American counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, in which General Chen takes questions from reporters, it appears that he also uses the phrase “numerous difficulties” (困难重重) to describe the course of the missile’s development. This tone could be interpreted to reflect a high level of uncertainly and ambivalence about the missile’s immediate prospects, directed at a Chinese audience through Chinese media. Viewed in this light, the three factors General Chen outlines (funding, technology, talent) may be viewed as serious constraints, even bottlenecks, in the challenging task of successfully maturing and integrating an ASBM system of systems. According to Aviation Week’s Bradley Perrett, “Chen’s comments imply that any DF-21Ds that have been deployed are not regarded as properly developed.”

However, it is unclear why General Chen would choose a prominent venue to raise the issue of such a controversial and provocative a weapon as China’s ASBM only to say something that might undermine deterrence credibility—the equivalent of having ‘the onus without the bonus.’ As Perrett correctly points out, “The appearance of his statement in the China Daily is itself meaningful. The English-language newspaper’s special role is to act as a government mouthpiece directed at the outside world. Its reports on sensitive subjects often show signs of being carefully written to deliver a message for Beijing. The DF-21D is one such sensitive subject.”

As for the definition of “operational,” it seems likely that the U.S. and Chinese militaries have different definitions of what it means for a weapon to be operational, with the PLA’s definition in this case being more stringent, at least in certain respects. This would explain why Admiral Robert Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, stated in December 2010: “I would gauge it as about the equivalent of a U.S. system that has achieved [Initial Operational Capability] IOC.” Perhaps also whereas Admiral Willard was speaking of the U.S. concept of IOC, General Chen is alluding to a Chinese benchmark closer to the U.S. concept of Full Operational Capability (FOC)—a much higher standard to meet, and one that no U.S. official has claimed publicly that China’s ASBM has achieved. In any case, this apparent discrepancy highlights the pitfalls of using U.S.-specific terms to describe foreign systems and capabilities. But it is worth revisiting Admiral Willard’s own statement of December 2010, which is not necessarily so different from General Chen’s: “The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be ‘initial operational capability,’ whereby it has—I think China would perceive that it has—an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it. It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years.” As in so many other areas, authorities on the respective sides of the Pacific may be talking past each other when in fact they are saying broadly similar things. It would be a mistake to let semantic issues obscure real Chinese progress with real strategic implications.

There may be other factors at play as well: General Chen may be downplaying Chinese capabilities to attempt to minimize foreign development of countermeasures to them. At the same time, the PLA may feel the need to meet a higher standard of testing before it can be confident of a novel weapon’s effectiveness because it lacks the U.S. military’s years of experience in high-intensity combat, sophisticated testing, and simulation. But it would be a mistake to assume that China’s DF-21D ASBM lacks what the U.S. military would consider to be lower-end “operational” capabilities just because it apparently does not yet meet General Chen’s definition. Here an American example may be relevant. The U.S. Air Force did not receive its first E-8 Joint STARS (Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System), an airborne battle management, command and control, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platform, until June 1996—meaning that the aircraft officially did not achieve IOC until then. However, two developmental aircraft were employed operationally as early as 1991 in Operation Desert Storm even though it was still in test and evaluation at the time.

Definitional issues aside, the bottom line is that General Chen would likely not be mentioning China’s ASBM in public if the PLA were not confident that it was maturing effectively and already had reached the necessary development level to begin to credibly shape regional strategic thinking in Beijing’s favor. China seeks not to wage war, but to have to have an effective conventional deterrent capability; and, in a worst case scenario, to have a strike capability if deterrence failed. This is why, General Chen is quoted as stressing in the English-language China Daily article, China’s ASBM “will be used as a defensive weapon when it is successfully developed, not an offensive one.” The goal is to push foreign aircraft carrier groups away from sensitive areas in the event of a crisis or conflict, and to influence the perceptions of people in Taiwan, Japan, and other parts of the region about the likelihood, and likely effectiveness, of U.S. intervention therein. From a Chinese perspective, this appears inherently defensive; from the perspective of the U.S. and other regional actors, it may not appear “defensive” at all. Herein lies a substantial challenge for Sino-American strategic relations even as the two great powers move to explore possibilities for mutually beneficial security cooperation in the future.

This will bear close study as further data points become available. Stay tuned!
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Does every nation always announce a weapon breakthrough if it works fine or isn't military history full of miracles that were mostly psychological warfare? The current Chinese stance is about ambiguous uncertainty for foreign analysts, because as the article, that started our discussion, points out, they don't seem to have the SIGINT to confirm and specify data on this weapon.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
What are you talking about??:confused:

Exactly with 30 dedicated military surveillance satellites, another 40 double duty civilian and military satellites You have 70 satellites add to that 40 various kind of Surveillance plane aka Y8 XXX. Plus 6 or 7 spy ships and untold number of Fishing& Maritime enforcement ship and thousand of fishing and freighter. Xianlong and WZ9 strategic UAV. You wonder what is he talking about other than sour grape or head buried in the sand aka denial ?

Last year China eclipse US in the number of satellites launches and this year another record breaking of 30 satellites launches.
 
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