Behind the China Missile Hype

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The USN has already started and made plenty of headway into arsenal ships. In fact, IIRC, there's about 300 Tomahawk cruise missiles that's on board some Ohio class SSGNs that's patrolling within launch range of the PRC. Not to mention that because the USN's ships have modular VLS, who's to say that the Ticonderoga or Arleigh Burke class ships that are escorting the CV wouldn't also be loaded with Tomahawks themselves.
The Ohio class SSGNs have 24 tubes. Two of which have been set aside and are used for SEAL deployments.

The remaining 22 tubes have been altered to take 7 Tomohawks each.

Each Ohio SSGN can carry up to 154 tomoahwk missiles. If two were out on an operation together (1/2 of the force of four total SSGNs) then that would be 288 Tomohawk missiles available from the SSGNs.

Now, each LA Class, Sew Wolf Class and Viiginia class can carry 12 Tomohawk missiles as well.

Arliegh Burks and Ticos can carry varying amounts depending on how many AAMs they want to sacrifice.

If necessary, the USN could amass many hundreds of Tomohawks for attacking any potential adversary...many of which would be used in an Alpha wave as a part of and right behind the stealth aircraft.

Finally, if the DF-21D were live fire tested (either inland, or more importantly, to really test it, out over sea) the US and other large power nations would be aware of it without being informed by the PRC. The signature of the launch and the flight of the missile would be picked up and tracked, particularly if it were out to sea.

And if they fired it out to sea, unless they wanted to make a tremendous international incident, and the PRC really has no need to create such an incident, they would have to identify an exclusion zone in the target area, where they would have their own ships to monitor the test itself. No such announcement, and no detection of such a test has occurred to date.

Now, they could have developed something, tested it statically. But I seriously doubt, with no actual live fire testing in the environment and against a target it is actually meant to hit, that the IOC at this time is anything too massive or expensive. If there is anything it will be a few prototype missiles set up to utilize whatever C4 and surveillance they have set up. Until they have conducted sure fire tests, it would be foolish to spend the billions it would take to establish a reliable, fully operational capability to be able to take on potentially several carrier groups at once and protect the system from the sure to be attempted reduction in capability by the US of the many systems necessary to allow such a weapon to remain effective. C4, acquisition, targeting, tracking, reacquisition, etc.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter. More of a Sung Tsu, almost false flag exercise to induce a potential adversary to either spend billions to completely re-evolve their strategy away from carriers, or to make them too timid to use the assets they have and thereby accomplish the A2/AD goal without having to develop the full system or really fire a shot at all.

Until I see the tests and the results thereof, I will continue to believe this is the most likely condition...not that something hasn't been set up...but just under the conditions I have outlined is my opinion.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
US doesn't always confirm or deny any Chinese missile test unless it is forced by the media informed by insider. Case in Point Chinese ASAT test Nor is there any press release on the latest JL2 missile test.

According to this article China thru their unofficial channel decide to leak the ASBM. Why they do that ?maybe to avoid real crisis over Taiwan should emergency occur

According to Ordnance magazine There are stages in ASBM development and therefore the confusion about the range of ASBM
Apparently the early version was ready back in 2009 but short range 1500km .The latter version is longer >2000 km
Read this excellent article They are sure aware of the counter measure that will face ASBM and they have way and mean to counter counter measure.Excerpt from long article
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China and Its Evolutionary Path to an ASBM

China’s effort to field a system capable of striking moving targets at sea is an evolution of its overall ballistic missile program. Since deployment of its first ballistic missile in the 1960s, the PLA and China’s aerospace industry have taken constant incremental steps toward greater range, survivability, accuracy, and effectiveness against a broader range of targets. China’s ASBM program is part of a broader effort to field the means to detect, track, and strike fixed and mobile targets at sea with precision throughout the Asia-Pacific region. According to the March 2009 Report to Congress on Military Power of the People’s Republic of China:

China is developing an ASBM based on a variant of the CSS-5 MRBM as a part of its anti-access strategy. The missile has a range in excess of 1,500 km, is armed with a maneuverable warhead, and when incorporated into a sophisticated command and control system, is intended to provide the PLA the capability to attack ships at sea, including aircraft carriers in the western Pacific Ocean.

The CSS-5 is the DF-21, a solid fueled medium range ballistic missile (MRBM) that began development in the 1960s but introduced into the PLA Second Artillery in the early 1990s. The latest variant of this MRBM is the 1750 kilometer range DF-21C, which is said to be modeled after the terminally-guided U.S. Pershing II ballistic missile. The DF-21C is reported to have a CEP of around 50 meters or better. This DF-21C would be bad news against Taiwan ,and the ability of the island’s new PATRIOT PAC-3 to defend against this longer range ballistic missile hasn’t been discussed much.

The ASBM most likely would be an evolution of the DF-21C, and has been referred to as the DF-21D. For a great overview, see arms controller Dr. Jeffrey Lewis’ posts here and here. Rick Fisher did an excellent write up of China’s new generation of conventional ballistic missiles in a July 2007 piece for the International Assessment and Strategy Center (IASC). It has a great picture of a DF-15 (NATO designation of CSS-6) equipped with a biconic re-entry vehicle, implying a terminal guidance capability.

It’s not unusual to take a precision strike system that was originally developed to go after ground targets and modify it for the maritime environment -- the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) and Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) are a couple of examples. However, given its flight characteristics, it’s not so easy to modify a ballistic missile to go after moving targets at sea. Yet Chinese engineers seem pretty confident they can do it. To make matters more complicated, the ballistic missile is only one component of a “system of systems” that also would include space-based, airborne, and surface-based sensor architectures.

While not authoritative, China’s blogosphere, bulletin board systems, and popular media may offer hints into what this capability entails. Given government control over the domestic cyberspace, articles indicate how Beijing authorities would like the world – and especially Taiwan – to perceive its emerging military capabilities. Chinese cyberspace is filled with commentary regarding the ASBM. However much of it can be traced to common sources – a pair of sharp, young journalists and a technically competent blogger with a call sign of KKTT.

The authors may not have 100% situational awareness regarding the ASBM program. But on the surface, the analysis seems credible enough to warrant attention, particularly since the subject matter expertise hints at links with China’s defense industry. It’s worth remembering that as China’s economy becomes increasingly competitive, its defense industry is following suit. As the authors note, moving an ASBM program into production could be pretty expensive, as would the integrated sensor network needed to support it. As testimony to how popular the ASBM program is among the general population, China’s Ku6 social networking site has a film clip of the ASBM, put together by a fan of the program.

Qiu Zhenwei and Long Haiyan: An Operational ASBM Scenario

A pair of writers linked with the magazine Modern Ships (现代舰船) -- Qiu Weizhen (邱玮贞) and Long Haiyan (龙海燕) --published a two part analysis in the monthly journal in December 2006 and January 2007. Qiu, switching the two characters of his first name (玮贞 to 贞玮), re-published the analysis in two blog entries (中国反舰弹道导弹发展探讨) and (中国反舰弹道导弹作战过程). These were were cited in major U.S. Navy-related blogs (click here for one example and here for another) and the Proceedings article discussed above. Qiu presumably switched the position of the characters in his first name for his blog possibly for copyright reasons, and one shouldn’t rule out the possibility of the names being pseudonyms. Regardless, the authors cite authoritative industry sources for technical background, which is commendable. In one comment, Qiu makes a plea for the world’s media to better understand the ASBM.

The articles and related blog posts are long but well worth the read. Qiu and Long note that the main impetus behind the ASBM program was China’s inability to counter U.S. intervention in the Taiwan Strait crisis of 1996. Shortly afterwards, the China Aerospace Science and Technology (CASC) First Academy began conceptual design work.

While not stated, CASC First Academy's competitor -- the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) Fourth Academy -- likely was awarded the ASBM research and development (R&D) contract after completion of proof of concept work in 2002. The CASIC Fourth Academy (航天科工集团第四研究院; or 航天科工四院 for short) has been responsible for DF-21-related R&D, probably including the ASAT vehicle that was successfully tested in January 2007 and the Kaituozhe (KT) family of commercial launch vehicles for small satellites. The CASIC Fourth Academy was formed in 2002 as part of a major CASIC reorganization.

{{NOTE: One senior Chinese space engineer with direct access to details on both the ASAT and ASBM programs commented in a brief media interview that the ASAT and ASBM guidance and control packages share the same technologies. At least one funding source for ASAT guidance and control research during the late 1990s and earlier this decade appears to be the 863-409 program (and possibly the 863-706 program). Presumably, common technologies include passive imaging infrared (IIR) terminal guidance and automated target recognition (ATR) software. Among the research entities involved during the initial R&D on an ASAT kinetic kill vehicle -- euphemistically referred to as a space interceptor (空间拦截器) - was the Harbin Institute of Technology.}}

Qiu and Long note that the ASBM system builds on the DF-21C program. Inherited technologies include a sophisticated onboard computer, pneumatic control for mid-course and terminal phase maneuvering, terminal guidance, and ATR technology. ATR matches images collected through radar and infrared sensors on the missile with images collected from strategic cueing sensors and stored in the warhead's onboard computer. The most expensive portion of an ASBM would be the onboard radar, which the authors believe is as sophisticated and costly as the AN/APG-77 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The authors estimate that the unit cost of an ASBM plus launcher would U.S. $5-10.5 million.

In terms of the missile’s operational capabilities, their main source is a CASC study published in 2000, which they believe captures results of a CASC proof of concept. Citing previous work done on a DF-15C terminally-guided ballistic missile, the pair highlights one of the study’s authors – Xin Wanqing – as leading the proof of concept work for the CASC First Academy’s design department (see this 2003 article discussing his work). Qiu and Long note China’s accelerating its program to deploy for an architecture of electro-optical (EO) and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellites to coincide with the initial deployment of the first generation ASBM in 2009. Bear in mind that the analysis, which would have taken considerable time to develop, is from almost three years ago.

Cueing Systems. To counter an aircraft carrier with a 1500-kilometer strike range, China must have a 2000 kilometer range search and tracking system for ASBM cueing that covers both the western Pacific and South China Sea, down to Singapore. A system would include not only space-based EO and SAR sensors, but also electronic intelligence (ELINT) satellites and a new generation of high altitude, long endurance unmanned aerial vehicles. Also included would be an over-the-horizon backscatter (OTH-B) radar system that extends out to at least 2000 kilometers (see Sean O’Connor’s excellent summary of the ASBM and OTH-B programs). The system would include automatic identification system (AIS) technology to distinguish between commercial shipping and military targets.

Missile Defense Countermeasures. Citing a Northwest Polytechnical University and other studies, Qiu and Long believe that the ASBM would adopt sophisticated missile defense countermeasures against U.S. sea-based missile defenses, including masking of the ASBM solid fueled motor’s signature, mid-course maneuvering, decoys, coatings to reduce the warhead’s radar cross section (RCS), and on-board jamming. Equipped with a hybrid solid and liquid fueled third stage, mid-course maneuvering would involve a boost-glide or hopping trajectory concept (跳跃式弹道方案). The missile would incorporate a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) linked with inertial navigation for autonomous mid-course guidance, as well as a possible SAR/millimeter wave radar with passive infrared seeker for terminal guidance. At various stages of flight, the ASBM would adopt speed maneuvers, and means to manage blackout periods due to ionization of the atmosphere above certain re-entry speeds.

Countering U.S. Missile Defense Surveillance and Tracking. In their detailed ASBM vs. sea-based missile defense scenario, the analysis goes through the SBIRS alert process, arguing that SBIRS would not be able to establish an impact prediction point and thus could fail to provide cueing for sea-based missile defense radar systems. They make an argument that Ground Based Radar (GBR) systems in Korea and Japan likely would be unable to establish a track. The analysis also addresses possible attempts by the U.S. High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Alaska could fail to jam China’s OTH-B system, implying the system has a military role.


Order of Battle Issues. Finally, Qiu and Long assert that two DF-21 anti-ship capable brigades will be deployed, with six battalions each with a total of 17 launchers. It’s not clear if new conventional DF-21 brigades would be established, or if the ASBM DF-21 variants would be upgrades to existing brigades. At the current time, the PLA Second Artillery is said to have three DF-21 brigades in eastern China. Two are subordinate to the 52 Base, the army-level Second Artillery organization opposite Taiwan. These are the 96163 Unit, aka the 811 Brigade based in the Qimen area in Anhui; and the 96161 Unit, aka 807 Brigade in Chizhou area in Jiangxi province. Another relatively new unit subordinate to the 51 Base (the 96117 Unit, aka the 822 Brigade based in Laiwu, Shandong province). It could be assumed that the Second Artillery wouldn’t mix nuclear and conventional DF-21 variants in the same brigade. {{NOTE: Reliable Chinese references indicate that a standard DF-15 SRBM brigade has six battalions with two companies per battalion. While not yet clear, it appears that existing DF-21 MRBM brigades still consist of only three battalions. These may be the units with nuclear missions. As conventional DF-21 brigades are established, it's possible that they could be organized similar to DF-15 brigades}}.

KKTT: China’s Extended Range Precision Strike Capability

Qiu Zhenwei and Long Haiyan’s analysis is only one example. Another observer who appears to be closely following the program goes by the call sign of “KKTT.” Under normal circumstances, bulletin board system (BBS) postings should be taken with a grain of salt. However, when observers cite their research and analysis with credible sources, then they may be worth paying attention to. In his main analysis published in April 2009 (China’s Development Concept for Theater Missile Strike Power; or 我国区域常规打击力量建设设想), KKTT argues that an ASBM program entails three phases.

The author implies that China has already developed a 1700-2000 kilometer range DF-21D. However key technologies needed for precision strike against a sea target are still under development. The three systems under development are: the DF-25; the DF-26; and the DF-27. (NOTE: One commentator of unknown reliability notes that the DF-26 and DF-27 are being developed separately by CASIC and CASC and only one will be downselected). Other sources claim that the DF-26 is a developmental sea-launched conventional ballistic missile). The author notes that a sea-launched variant of the DH-10 land attack cruise missile with a range of 3000 kilometers is under development. Cruise missile designers have been advocating that China’s extended range LACMs be adapted for counter-carrier operations. According to KKTT’s analysis, all four systems are supposed to be tested and fielded before 2015.

A second phase would involve development of sophisticated aerodynamic maneuvering capability that not only would enhance a missile's ability to penetrate missile defenses but also extend its range. Currently in its preliminary research stage, a boost-glide missile (助推-滑翔式导弹), based on part on 1930s technology developed by German V-2 missile engineers, would move to the R&D stage only after 2015 with deployment before 2020. A final phase, deployed before 2025, would be a hypersonic cruise vehicle for global operations.

Concluding Comments: Bring It Back to Taiwan

In short, sufficient evidence exists that China is serious about fielding a capability that could undercut the capacity of the United States to assist Taiwan in a conflict against China. However, what we do not know is if China’s aerospace industry will be successful in making an anti-ship ballistic missile available to the PLA, or when. One sign would be an ASBM demonstration -- a test that U.S. surveillance systems could detect. However, China has surprised us time and time again. One scenario is for China to conduct separate tests for the guidance package, flight vehicle, and attitude control system. Chinese references note the possibility of using hardware in the loop or other simulation systems to test an ASBM guidance package. However, PLA authorities probably would want to have a high degree of confidence that the system works before giving the aerospace industry the green to begin production. As Qiu and Long indicate, the ASBM could be pretty expensive.

Aerospace industry authorities may be ready to test anytime. The sooner the PLA customer can certify the system, the sooner China’s defense industry can lock in a production contract. And if Qiu and Long’s estimate is close, U.S. $5-10.5 million per missile is pretty good business, especially if there’s an order for a couple hundred. CASIC and/or CASC probably aren’t that concerned about the political implications.

However, a more likely scenario is for China’s civilian leaders to wait for a propitious time to approve a full, integrated flight test. The year 2011 -- a year before Taiwan’s presidential elections in March 2012 – could be a propitious time. After a successful test, it probably would take a while for word to leak out from the U.S. intelligence community. But the timing of a test could be intended to influence popular perception in Taiwan in the run-up to the March 2012 elections. The 1995-1996 tests were threatening to that portion of Taiwan’s population that doesn’t take brute force demonstrations very well. However, an ASBM test likely would be subtle, with no need for an official declaration or acknowledgement. Yet it could be cast in the U.S., Taiwan, and Chinese media as directed against aircraft carriers. Tests would not be directed against Chinese compatriots on Taiwan, so nothing to worry about, or so the line could go.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
Answer: The detection of a DF-21D type target by the F-35 sensors alerts the CVN defenses to prepare for intercepting the warhead and do whatever it takes to stop the attack.

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Nothing special, Just another layer of defense against the DF-21D. And another headache for Chinese planners. Notice it gave nine minutes worth of WARNING to the CVN. That's alot of time to respond and DEFEND against an attack
as I was saying, it still means that the CVBG is still 3000 km away from the chinese coast -> out of tomahawk range AND strike fighter range.

It doesn't matter if the missile can be intercepted or not, *if* by it's sheer existence, the USN is unwilling to sail close to the Chinese coast, then it have achieved it's purpose.
By the same token it is highly doubtful that a warhead or group of maneuvering warheads can home in on a carrier which is also maneuvering.
exactly, that is what I am saying, I never said that the DF21 can successfully sink a CVN; or that a SM3 can hit a DF21.

All i am saying is, if you believe a SM3 can intercept a DF21, then you should believe that a DF21 can hit a CVN - or likewise, if you think a DF21 will miss, then you should also think that a SM3 will miss.
Answer: The system the DF-21D is based upon, the Pershing 2 used millimeter radar to home in on its target, However the target was stationary while the CVN is maneuvering and shooting at the incoming missile
So, since both the US GUPPY and the Soviet Zulu were reverse engineers of the german XXI boats, does that mean that all three boats are identical?

even *if* the DF21 was a copy of a Pershing II, does that mean the radar and guidance system must be the same?

You are making a very big conjecture.
Are you serious? Your satellite targeting system is in orbit and subject to orbital plotting. In other words it is moving and the carrier can be in places where the satellite cannot see it. All other systems you mention are too slow to target a moving object like the carrier

And as we have discussed earlier, there are OTHER big ships out there. The CVN is sure to alter its signature to look like a supertanker to confuse the Chinese surveillance system
I am merely stating the possibilities, have you heard of geostationary satellites?

If you believe that the US have the capability to detect and react to a Chinese missile launch within minutes, why will you not believe that the Chinese can monitor a big slow moving CVN for weeks prior to striking at a period of time where the required low orbit military sat can provide guidience?
And the Chinese do not know either. To bring up quantum radar like that is a factor is foolish. There is no OPERATIONAL quantum radar and will not be one for some time
My statement was purely, "WE DON'T KNOW" what they could be using, quantum radar is just to illustrate from the low tech to the high tech
Sigh. Its not on the deck. It is between the DF-21D sensors and the sea surface. Just like clouds
So whats stopping the CVN from being targeted and positioned with incoming cruise missiles which relay the targeting coordinates via triangulation?
I hate to inform you but tests against multiple targets have been underway for some time. Here you go:

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Again, 10% successful rate.

some how you seem to assume that the SM3 WILL succeed? when tests shown are contrary.

In case anyone is wondering how ABMs aboard ships could handle a saturation attack by multiple DF-21s check this video of how things were done in the early 1970s.

Notice that the Sprint missile is small enough to fit into shipborne missile cells with minor modifications. Tested and ready for battle

SPRINT ABM - Zero to Mach 10 in 5 Seconds!

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Yeah? doesn't really mean much right? a sprint can intercept ONE, Known, predetermined ballistic missile; I never doubt that some missiles will be intercepted; but no mater soviet or Chinese anti CVBG doctine you follow, it will be a multi-axis attack from above, from all sides and from beneath at the same time. No country have demonstrated the ability to launch such an attack, nor the ability to survive such an attack.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I love how all of the sudden a mach 10 ABM has none of the problems of a ASBM going at mach 10. And somehow it's easier to hit a missile than a carrier. More contradictions.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Though that is true, like I've mentioned earlier, the CBG should have a bit over two minutes to engage the DF-21D warhead. The Ticonderoga can fire a missile every 2 seconds, so the rest of that time is free for evasions, calculations (which shouldn't take much time), etc. And again, we don't know how maneuverable the DF-21D is. At the very least, it has to have a MaRV (Maneuverable Reentry Vehicle) to adjust it's course at the terminal stage to hit the target. In that case, it wouldn't be making any evasive maneuvers or anything really fancy other than "go in a straight line towards the target", so yes, it would still be predictable.
I don't agree here with the calculation speed. To do a simple steady state computational fluid dynamic with a fairly good research grade computer array will take about 20~ minutes; lets say the super computer on the destroyers can do it in 0.1 seconds, it will still have to calculate and recalculate a dynamic model to predict it's flight path - and to calculate and readjust a interception solution.... not an easy, accurate and quick task no matter how you cut it.

Just to reassure you again, we don't actually know how maneuverable the DF-21D is. In most likely hoods, it is only maneuverable in it's terminal stage in the sense that it doesn't follow the traditional path of the ICBM of (go to space, fall down, blow up), but rather to go to space, fall down, find target, adjust course and hit target. That's the only guaranteed maneuverability the DF-21D has, and when it's on the "adjust course and hit target" part of the process, it's in an easily predictable situation that is similar to that falling USA-193.
except you have to find it from launch within a ~3 minute window.

USA 193... was tracked... with a tracking ship and not the Aegis destroyers...

it is a very different scenario...
Those are suggestions, not facts. In tests, which is really the only concrete information we have, the SM-3 beats the DF-21D, every time. Simply said, the SM-3 has proven itself, the DF-21D hasn't.
Again, I am not doing a comparison, I am only saying that the SM3 have questionable interception capability, just as the DF21 have questionable ability to hit a moving CVN.

Velocity is a contributor to KE which is a large factor in penetration but again, penetrator design also plays an arguably more critical role. Simply having x mass moving at mach 10 in whatever funky shape you may want isn't going to pan out with the entire situation at hand, which includes producability, warhead shape and size, release mechanisms, etc. In that case, a bunch of balls is the best way to go. The problem with spheres is that, even though they're going at mach 10, and even assuming that they'd penetrate the deck armor of the carrier, after the penetration, there's a whole zoo of physics-terminology that is going out of it's way to FUBAR the sphere up. Simply said, assuming a DU sphere does penetrate the deck, it won't do much damage afterwards. So no, mass, velocity, shape do contribute the majority of what happens afterwards.
I did say spheres from tiny 1/2" balls to 10 kG rods, and I did say penetrators like the M829A3.

Lets say it doesn't penetrate the deck, you are still looking at a huge release of energy, each 30 mm ball, will have enough kinetic energy (1,634,256 kJ) equivalent of ~390 KG of TNT. Most of that energy will be used up as heat; lets say 50%?. Lets take Iron (I can't find steel) the latent heat of fusion = 272 kJ/kg, with a specific heat capacity of 0.46 kJ/kgK, steel melts at 1500~ deg C (lets take ambient temperature to be 0C for simplicity), that means, 1 KG of carrier deck can be melted by 962 Kj,

Steel have a density of around 8000 kg/m3, With an armor deck of 3" or 76.2mm, 50% of the energy of a 30 mm ball of DU can melt, 1.39 m2 worth of deck.

ofcouse the DU ball may bounce, it might be moultant and splash; in every case, the law of physics dictate that it must release it's energy some how.

But lets just say the sub munition will penetrate the deck, What is underneath the deck? lets say it still retain the speed of 20 m/s? Will a F-35 be cleared to fly with 30mm balls striking it?

Nope. Unfortunately the USN already knows that it's air wing is going to be useless against China, hence why the development of arsenal ships. In every USA v. PRC scenario, the US wouldn't send any 4th generation fighters over China until we've completed a few rounds of SEADs ops with our stealth fleet, which is still vastly superior to China's in present and near-future terms.
Then, does that not mean that the DF21 have suceeded? The discussion is not about the US vs China (as per the forum rules), it is about if the DF21 can help China deter the CVBG from able to launch air strikes at China and her assets.
Though the PRC is larger and more advanced than pre-invasion Iraq, a tomahawk is still a tomahawk, it still has 450 kg of explosives to blow up anything or anybody that comes in it's way. China has made headway and developed or bought Russian point-to-kill SAMs, but they wouldn't have enough, economically speaking, to shoot down all the missiles we'd launch at them.
again, as per above, an F/A18 super hornet can deliver 8,000 KG of munition, a tomahawk can only do 450 KG. if the DF21 makes the CVBG not sail within air strike range, then it have severely handicapped american strike capabilities.

Also again, a DF21 with a range of 3000 km out ranges that of a 2500 km Tomahawk. The 4 ohio, SSBN can carry 154 Tomahawk each, 916 tomahawks is less than what the Americans launched at Iraq -> and that is assuming they can launch all of them before the Chinese respond.

And remember, those are Modular VLS. You can have a Harpoon missile in one cell, a SM-3 in the one next to it, some Tomahawks behind those two, etc. You can put anything in any amount you want in there so long as they were designed to fit in there and launched from there. Launching Tomahawks from your destroyers won't compromise your fleet's ability to defend itself from DF-21Ds, for example, so long as you actually have missiles that can defend yourselves from it.

Oh and, before we go too off topic, I don't usually read too much about submarines (because they suck :p) but I'm pretty sure that the USN's submarine arm is still superior to the PLAN's submarine arm.
No contest there, American Sub arm is one of the best, if not the best.
EDIT:

After reading some more about the DF-21D, it's apogee (peak altitude) is 500 km, which means that when it's there, the US and Russia are guaranteed to be tracking it and any fleets around where the DF-21D was supposed to land (it's inertially guided before it's active guidance activates) would be alerted to it and would be tracking it for themselves. In that scenario, assuming the DF-21D is falling to earth immediately at Mach 10 once at it's apogee (realistically, it wouldn't, but for simplicity sake), gives the CBG about 147 seconds even to engage the DF-21D, which is a lot of time for supercomputers.

Yes, the ~2 min mark is what we all agree is the reaction time the US or any one have against the DF21. But don't forget that is two minutes to acquire, calculate firing solution, launch counter measures.
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and comon sense say that a radar optimized for the horizontal will be weak against high angle attacks:

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Quickie

Colonel
I hate to inform you but tests against multiple targets have been underway for some time. Here you go:

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---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

Something for the DF-21D advocates to consider: What is the CVN and her escorts are able to REPEL several DF-21D attacks? What then?

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

In case anyone is wondering how ABMs aboard ships could handle a saturation attack by multiple DF-21s check this video of how things were done in the early 1970s.

Notice that the Sprint missile is small enough to fit into shipborne missile cells with minor modifications. Tested and ready for battle

SPRINT ABM - Zero to Mach 10 in 5 Seconds!

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The Sprint missile boost stage (1st) is too big for ship miissile cells. It needs the boost stage to get it to Mach 10.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
I love how all of the sudden a mach 10 ABM has none of the problems of a ASBM going at mach 10. And somehow it's easier to hit a missile than a carrier. More contradictions.

I love it too how this Mach 10 ABM has been tested and has intercepted 12 out of 13 warheads where the DF-21D is just a concept. Remember this was in the late 1960s and early 70s for Sprint. Proven technology

Did you know that the Sprint ABM was supersonic by the time it left its launch cell? And the total time for intercept was 15 seconds from launch to warhead kill? Nice!

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 AM ----------

The video info at youtube.

So what makes you believe that a Sprint missile could not fit in a SM3 cell?

---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

The Sprint missile boost stage (1st) is too big for ship miissile cells. It needs the boost stage to get it to Mach 10.

That looks like it could fit into a SM3 launch cell without too much trouble. What do you think?

Looks like they can repel a DF-21D attack to me

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---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

@Lezt:
I am merely stating the possibilities, have you heard of geostationary satellites?

Answer: Yes I have. And all sea surveillance satellites are in low earth orbit. The only geostationary satellite surveillance satellite coming on line is this one. And it represents a major breakthrough in technology. It will monitor a large portion of areas capable of launches and give ample warning to the fleet

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If you believe that the US have the capability to detect and react to a Chinese missile launch within minutes, why will you not believe that the Chinese can monitor a big slow moving CVN for weeks prior to striking at a period of time where the required low orbit military sat can provide guidience?

Answer: The US has had the capability to detect and react to missile launches since the late 1960s. America is no late comer to this game. Systems have been in a state of constant upgrade for decades.

Space-Based Early Warning: From MIDAS to DSP to SBIRS

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---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

All i am saying is, if you believe a SM3 can intercept a DF21, then you should believe that a DF21 can hit a CVN - or likewise, if you think a DF21 will miss, then you should also think that a SM3 will miss.

Why would you believe that the SM3 will miss? It has been tested countless times to prove the concept. And it has been successful. On the other hand the DF-21D has not been tested once.


So whats stopping the CVN from being targeted and positioned with incoming cruise missiles which relay the targeting coordinates via triangulation?

The Chinese have yet to demonstrate that capability. When they do let me know.

some how you seem to assume that the SM3 WILL succeed? when tests shown are contrary.

And the DF-21D concept has been tested when?
 

Quickie

Colonel
They have a big difference in diameter. Btw, you should know this because you're the one who is making the claim. Furthermore, with its neutron warhead, it's something you don't use until the sh.. hits the fan.
 
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