Behind the China Missile Hype

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Sadly it seems the materials posted sailed over your heads, because it clearly states that the obscurants used to screen the CVN have particles suspended in the medium that block the visibility of the CVN and other ships to multiple parts of the spectrum. This includes millimeter wave radars which are the most likely mode to be used by the DF-21D seeker head to home in on the carrier.

It is only a proposal an idea that haven't materialized into weapon system. As I said before you have to measure a particular radar signature and adjust the smoke particle to fit those spec the generate that particle
"......The application of obscurants on the modern battlefield has been widely examined by U.S. Army strategists and operators for over a decade and a half; (2) obscurants are firmly imbedded in U.S. Army doctrine. (3) Moreover, the effectiveness of obscurants against a panoply of terminal homing systems, from the visual to the millimeter-wave spectrum, is proven. In simple terms, the particles suspended in the medium of smoke can be adjusted in size to absorb and diffuse radar waves emanating from the seeker heads of incoming antiship missiles, thereby denying any homing information to the missile. In the modern naval battle space, where antiship cruise missiles (ASCMs) are a principal threat, adapting obscurant systems and developing tactics and operational schemes for their use at sea is prudent. Given the stark potential of antiship ballistic missiles (ASBMs), this adaptation may be essential......"

It is just an idea to explore farther but have they had this system in production yet? It doesn't specified what kind of radar it is effective against too they just give general description from to millimeter radar.They have to measure the radar wave length first then select the particle and generate the smoke particle to fit the the radar wave No?. one second enough?. By that time the warhead is on top of you

In simple terms, the particles suspended in the medium of smoke can be adjusted in size to absorb and diffuse radar waves emanating from the seeker heads of incoming antiship missiles,


The challenge, then, for naval strategists, operators, and acquisition professionals is to "navalize" obscurants for use at sea, either developing new systems or adapting existing ones. One such system that appears primed for adaptation is the U.S. Army's M56E1 Coyote smoke-generating system.
Effective in virtually the entire spectrum, such millimeter-wave obscurants show great promise in thwarting the terminal radar seekers in many modern ASCMs.


In other word vaporware
 
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NikeX

Banned Idiot
This was happening in the 2002 timeframe:

"......The US Army ERDEC is developing advanced aerosol systems to combat threat surveillance, fire control, and seeker systems operating in the visible, infrared, and millimeter wave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum.

There is no known counter for this technology by seeker heads today. A DF-21D seeker attempting to use its millimeter radar to find the CVN would be defeated. This represents another high hurdle for the Chinese planners to overcome.

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Patent number 6666143: Obscurant Device, describes how development of a simple device to counter many of today's weapons systems that use surveillance and target acquisition (STA) devices which can exploit the infrared and millimeter wavebands of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Designing obscurant devices which can provide screening against such systems often results in complicated or costly solutions. A device capable of mitigating these problems is described wherein an obscurant device (10), and more particularly a device capable of providing screening against the visual, infrared and millimeter wave regions of the electromagnetic spectrum, comprises an obscurant payload, a burster charge capable, when detonated by a detonator, of disseminating said payload and a payload casing wherein some or all of the payload casing is configured to disintegrate upon actuation of the burster charge and to act thereafter as an obscurant.

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---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

The DF-21D is based upon the Pershing 2 IRBM. Hence it uses a guidance and homing system like the Pershing 2

Anti Radar obscurants can defeat these types of homing systems

Here is a description of the Pershing 2 terminal homing system


Radar area correlator

The highly accurate terminal guidance technique used by the Pershing II RV was radar area correlation, using a Goodyear Aerospace active radar guidance system. This technique compared live radar video return to prestored reference scenes of the target area and determined RV position errors with respect to its trajectory and target location. These position errors were used to update the inertial guidance system, which in turn sent commands to the vane control system to guide the RV to the target.

At a predetermined altitude, the radar unit was activated to provide altitude update data and begin scanning the target area. The analog radar video return was digitized into 2-bit pixels by the correlator unit and was formatted into a 128 by 128 array. The target reference scene data, loaded prior to launch via the ground and missile data links, were also encoded as 2-bit pixels and placed in reference memory formatted in a 256 by 256 array. The reference scene resolution necessary to correspond to the decreasing altitude of the RV was effected by placing four reference data arrays in memory, each representing a given altitude band. This correlation process was performed several times during each of four altitude bands and continued to update the inertial guidance system until just prior to impact.
If for some reason the correlator system failed to operate or if the correlation data quality was determined to be faulty, the inertial guidance system continued to operate and guided the RV to the target area with inertial accuracy only.
Goodyear also developed the Reference Scene Generation Facility— a truck mounted shelter containing the equipment required to program the missile targeting.[21] Radar maps of target areas were stored on disk, then specific targeting data was transferred to a tape cartridge. During countdown operations, the cartridge was plugged into the launcher control panel.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

In other word vaporware

Ha! Does this patent sound like "vapor ware"? Try again.

Obscurant Device - Patent 6666143
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This was happening in the 2002 timeframe:

"......The US Army ERDEC is developing advanced aerosol systems to combat threat surveillance, fire control, and seeker systems operating in the visible, infrared, and millimeter wave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum.

There is no known counter for this technology by seeker heads today. A DF-21D seeker attempting to use its millimeter radar to find the CVN would be defeated. This represents another high hurdle for the Chinese planners to overcome.

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Patent number 6666143: Obscurant Device, describes how development of a simple device to counter many of today's weapons systems that use surveillance and target acquisition (STA) devices which can exploit the infrared and millimeter wavebands of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Designing obscurant devices which can provide screening against such systems often results in complicated or costly solutions. A device capable of mitigating these problems is described wherein an obscurant device (10), and more particularly a device capable of providing screening against the visual, infrared and millimeter wave regions of the electromagnetic spectrum, comprises an obscurant payload, a burster charge capable, when detonated by a detonator, of disseminating said payload and a payload casing wherein some or all of the payload casing is configured to disintegrate upon actuation of the burster charge and to act thereafter as an obscurant.

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---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

The DF-21D is based upon the Pershing 2 IRBM. Hence it uses a guidance and homing system like the Pershing 2

Anti Radar obscurants can defeat these types of homing systems

Here is a description of the Pershing 2 terminal homing system


Radar area correlator

The highly accurate terminal guidance technique used by the Pershing II RV was radar area correlation, using a Goodyear Aerospace active radar guidance system. This technique compared live radar video return to prestored reference scenes of the target area and determined RV position errors with respect to its trajectory and target location. These position errors were used to update the inertial guidance system, which in turn sent commands to the vane control system to guide the RV to the target.

At a predetermined altitude, the radar unit was activated to provide altitude update data and begin scanning the target area. The analog radar video return was digitized into 2-bit pixels by the correlator unit and was formatted into a 128 by 128 array. The target reference scene data, loaded prior to launch via the ground and missile data links, were also encoded as 2-bit pixels and placed in reference memory formatted in a 256 by 256 array. The reference scene resolution necessary to correspond to the decreasing altitude of the RV was effected by placing four reference data arrays in memory, each representing a given altitude band. This correlation process was performed several times during each of four altitude bands and continued to update the inertial guidance system until just prior to impact.
If for some reason the correlator system failed to operate or if the correlation data quality was determined to be faulty, the inertial guidance system continued to operate and guided the RV to the target area with inertial accuracy only.
Goodyear also developed the Reference Scene Generation Facility— a truck mounted shelter containing the equipment required to program the missile targeting.[21] Radar maps of target areas were stored on disk, then specific targeting data was transferred to a tape cartridge. During countdown operations, the cartridge was plugged into the launcher control panel.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------



Ha! Does this patent sound like "vapor ware"? Try again.

Obscurant Device - Patent 6666143

There are thousands of patents purportedly to solve some problem but never panned out and languishing in patent office.The patent office doesn't evaluate effectiveness of an invention It only criteria is whether it violate the law of physics that all. So it doesn't say anything about effectiveness

Again this supposedly magic weapon is developed in 2002.This device look like small canister now how much smoke can it generate to cover 1000 ft behemoth . 9 years has passed and the Chinese also have equivalent called bodyguard system. So they know the physics and can developed counter measure .

Yeah smoke and aerosol solve all your problem ok then no ABM no SM3 missile just generate the smoke and sleep well at night nothing to worry.All the new missile like Brimstone are rendered useless
.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Apples and oranges. How the army uses "smoke" is not the same as the navy? Again you can't control the weather on the high seas. You would have to deploy a lot of smoke with this added agent to cover a fleet of ships.

Also how much smoke can you deploy in the minutes you discover an ASBM is launched? Are you going to stand still and hope the weather is still so the smoke hangs around or are you going to get your butt out of there at full speed to leave the smoke behind you?
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
On the matter of pershing ii...

The DF-21D is based upon the Pershing 2 IRBM. Hence it uses a guidance and homing system like the Pershing 2

Anti Radar obscurants can defeat these types of homing systems

Here is a description of the Pershing 2 terminal homing system

A lot has been said about DF-21D with that missile, mostly about the similarity of MaRV and terminal homing. There's never been anything to suggest its teminal guidance is anything like Pershing 2, and the additional mid course guidance for DF-21D makes it an entirely different weapon. So transposing Pershing 2' weaknesses onto DF-21D is flawed in itself.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
That cutaway you posted is of the shkval supercavitating torpedo. See link below


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The smoke or as it is known obscurant is rapid blooming. Meaning it can reach its potential within tens of seconds. Regarding multiple launchings of DF-21s to overwhelm the defenses of the CVN battle see post #118. This smoke can be generate by ship and aircraft. It was done so many times in WW2. The smoke is only needed to spoil the terminal homing of the DF-21D's warhead. So that means less than 30 seconds.

Again just think of the difficulty of a warhead or several warheads attempting to fight their way to the carrier battlegroup and finally encountering this scene below as these warheads try to find the carrier before diving into the ocean.

All the while the CVN battle group is shooting at these warheads.

And imagine the problem for these warheads if that obscurant is giving off a radar return. That would be one giant target for any radar targeting system aboard the DF-21 warheads.


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Well, strategically, lets say I launch 1 dumb/fake scud like balistic missile mixed in with real ones at the CVBG every 15 minutes, I doubt the CVBG can differentiate if it is a DF21 or a dummy. Smoke will be dispersed more or less continuously,

Then, can flight opts occur? if not, the carrier is mission killed and the DF21 threat have been successful.

The second thing is, how much "special smoke" is the CVBG carrying? it is not like ww2 where they just inject bunker oil into the stack to create smoke. -> won't the smoke run out - with a random guess - in a few days if it is continuously deployed?

Also, doesn't this smoke blind the same radar frequencies the CVBG is using - effectively making it blind?

Smoke to me doesn't seem like an end it solution to ASBM threats.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
There are thousands of patents purportedly to solve some problem but never panned out and languishing in patent office.The patent office doesn't evaluate effectiveness of an invention It only criteria is whether it violate the law of physics that all. So it doesn't say anything about effectiveness

The real question is are you able to understand patent 6666143 well enough to make an informed assessment of what is being discussed?

Again this supposedly magic weapon is developed in 2002.This device look like small canister now how much smoke can it generate to cover 1000 ft behemoth . 9 years has passed and the Chinese also have equivalent called bodyguard system. So they know the physics and can developed counter measure .

It is clear that you are unable to understand the body of information contained in the patent abstract. Oh well

Yeah smoke and aerosol solve all your problem ok then no ABM no SM3 missile just generate the smoke and sleep well at night nothing to worry.All the new missile like Brimstone are rendered useless

Sadly your lack of understanding causes you to jump to conclusions. This advanced obscurant is only one of many defenses being created that will render the DF-21D ineffective in completing its stated mission. And that is to attack and sink a modern CVN

Let me know when they stop talking about the DF-21 and actually fire one. The world is waiting for that day
.

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

Well, strategically, lets say I launch 1 dumb/fake scud like balistic missile mixed in with real ones at the CVBG every 15 minutes, I doubt the CVBG can differentiate if it is a DF21 or a dummy. Smoke will be dispersed more or less continuously,

If the real and dummy DF-21Ds survive this defense (below) then let us talk about obscurants. But again we may never need this defense because the DF-21 may never fly

"......The Multiple Kill Vehicle (MKV) a U.S. missile defense program[1] whose goal is to design, develop, and deploy multiple small kinetic energy-based warheads that can intercept and destroy multiple ballistic missiles, including possible decoy targets (penetration aids).

The MKV mission is to destroy medium-range through intercontinental-range ballistic missiles equipped with multiple warheads or countermeasures by using a single interceptor missile. During an actual hostile ballistic missile attack, the carrier vehicle with its cargo of small kill vehicles would have maneuvered into the path of an enemy missile. Using tracking data from the Ballistic Missile Defense System and its own seeker, the carrier vehicle would have dispensed and guided the kill vehicles to destroy any warheads or countermeasures...."

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

A lot has been said about DF-21D with that missile, mostly about the similarity of MaRV and terminal homing. There's never been anything to suggest its teminal guidance is anything like Pershing 2, and the additional mid course guidance for DF-21D makes it an entirely different weapon. So transposing Pershing 2' weaknesses onto DF-21D is flawed in itself.

Okay I'll bite: What is the terminal guidance of the DF-21D? And how is it different from the Pershing 2? That question is so simple you should be able to answer it without any trouble

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

Apples and oranges. How the army uses "smoke" is not the same as the navy? Again you can't control the weather on the high seas. You would have to deploy a lot of smoke with this added agent to cover a fleet of ships.

Also how much smoke can you deploy in the minutes you discover an ASBM is launched? Are you going to stand still and hope the weather is still so the smoke hangs around or are you going to get your butt out of there at full speed to leave the smoke behind you?

To expand upon your question a bit I would like to know how the DF-21D will find the CVN during broken cloud weather? Is it a fair weather weapon only? Is it only effective during clear days at sea?

And how will they update the position of the carrier that may have moved at 35 knots since the ASBM was fired and get that data to the DF-21 speeding along at Mach 10?

Or how will the DF-21D's puny onboard sensors burn through the intense jamming it will receive from many sources as it attempts to locate the CVN?

So many questions and so few answers
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
It is you who need to learn drawing interpretation lesson. What is clearly look like a smoke generator for Tank or APC to fool ATGM. You assume it will do the same job to hide 1000ft Carrier with 60m.hr wind. If it work, we won't hear any tank or APC casualty on battle field in Lebanon, Irak, Afghanistan. Well you can believe anything you want

ASBM has been tested repeatedly and ONI affirmed the test.China doesn't announced every single missile test .JL2 was tested with 6 missile launch one after another right after Christmas, while the western press is on holiday. I haven't heard the news in western press
 
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NikeX

Banned Idiot
It is you who need to learn drawing interpretation lesson. What is clearly look like a smoke generator for Tank or APC to fool ATGM. You assume it will do the same job to hide 1000ft Carrier with 60m.hr wind. If it work, we won't hear any tank or APC casualty on battle field in Lebanon, Irak, Afghanistan. Well you can believe anything you want

Of course as you can clearly see there are various ways to spread this obscurant including using aircraft. Try looking beyond the limits

Here is wonderful footage of an aircraft laying protective smoke for a warship at sea.This was in 1917

Imagine what modern aircraft can do to screen the carrier

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
To expand upon your question a bit I would like to know how the DF-21D will find the CVN during broken cloud weather? Is it a fair weather weapon only? Is it only effective during clear days at sea?

And how will they update the position of the carrier that may have moved at 35 knots since the ASBM was fired and get that data to the DF-21 speeding along at Mach 10?

Or how will the DF-21D's puny onboard sensors burn through the intense jamming it will receive from many sources as it attempts to locate the CVN?

So many questions and so few answers


Do you control the weather? You seem to think so since you avoid the most obvious for your smoke screen to work. 35 knots? Again do you control the weather so that your smoke cloud will stay with your 35 knot travelling carrier. Again you ignore what you don't want to hear or read. You throw the same published article as if it were the bible yet ignore how it says the ASBM has "stark potential." To which you believe the contrary and has no stark potential. Ironic. I love how you make it that 35 knots is something when Mach 10 isn't. The whole point at what alarms people over the ASBM is the fear it can be guided in on a moving target. You act like the ASBM is just fire and shoot and hope it hits like artillery.

If smoke was the easy fool proof answer to defeat everything guided then why isn't everyone covering themselves with smoke? Did you know the US Naval War College has conducted military simulations of an attack on China. The US has lost every single one due to how China can launch swarms upon swarms of anti-ship missiles. I know it's just a simulation but then all you have is paper. You don't think your fool-proof smoke defense wasn't used in this simulation? And if it wasn't, it's because it doesn't work like you think it does.

Yeah you know why you have so few answers?
 
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