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Blackstone

Brigadier
When a claim or assertion is made without basis it is term unsubstantiated or unfounded. When we do then one should be prepared to defend that position or opinion. Yes I do make judgments but on this occasion I clearly said I am unable to do so as to whether Australia is investing sufficiently in its security given its threat assessment. You view it differently and hence I am challenging you to substantiate your view because matching defence spending to GDP is simply superficial even if you insist it is a reasonable person's view. Defence spending programs are based on threat assessments, a determination of what assets and spending are required to address those threats and gamed against different scenarios and their probabilities. Unless you have access to intelligence and security information, you just can't make any determination of threshold requirements let alone adequacy.

I answered your question already, but for your benefit, I'll answer it again. We clearly know what Australian leaders believe as sufficient defense expenditure, because they said it was 2% GDP in their defense papers. I credit the Australian government with knowing if that level is sufficient for their security. You, of course, are free to call that superficial, and you might be right for a change. Nevertheless, that's what your own government said, and you should take any displeasure you might harbor directly to them.


As an example, in the 2016 white paper Australia has deemed necessary to increase its submarine force from 6 to 12. How did it get to this number? At a simplistic level if I were to speculate, it would be from deterrent patrols to some form of participation in blockade of SLOC. There could be multitudes of scenarios leading to determination of force structure. As an example :


There are 4 potential choke points leading from and to the SCS. If a blockade was to be established around those choke points, then using the 1/3 rule a minimum of 12 submarines in the force would be required. Alternatively a short term surge requirement might require 6 if the plan is to extend the patrols deep into the SCS. I do not know what considerations or scenarios are in the Australian defence plans and neither do you. So how is it possible for you to determine that Australia is not spending enough to address those issues. You don’t even know what conditions are considered relative to that threat assessment.

Why do I Australia isn't spending enough for defense? Because the Australian government said so. To wit, Australia defense establishment said as far back as Y2000 the nation needed to spend 2% GDP (their words, not my), and they haven't met that in any year since. Does your own set of facts say differently?

The period between 2000 to 2014 is not even relevant because Australia’s view of China during that period was threat neutral. It is only in the 2016 white paper that the increasing threat in the SCS was highlighted.

Oh really? 2000 to 2014 aren't relevant? Where did you get this little gem? You think the Australian government was Rip Van Winkel in those years? Kevin Rudd telling Hillary Clinton to prepare to use force against China should things go south is "threat neutral?" Obama and Gillard's press conference, November 2011, and US Marines rotating in out of Darwin was because both leaders thought China was threat neutral?
 

Brumby

Major
I answered your question already, but for your benefit, I'll answer it again. We clearly know what Australian leaders believe as sufficient defense expenditure, because they said it was 2% GDP in their defense papers. I credit the Australian government with knowing if that level is sufficient for their security. You, of course, are free to call that superficial, and you might be right for a change. Nevertheless, that's what your own government said, and you should take any displeasure you might harbor directly to them.




Why do I Australia isn't spending enough for defense? Because the Australian government said so. To wit, Australia defense establishment said as far back as Y2000 the nation needed to spend 2% GDP (their words, not my), and they haven't met that in any year since. Does your own set of facts say differently?



Oh really? 2000 to 2014 aren't relevant? Where did you get this little gem? You think the Australian government was Rip Van Winkel in those years? Kevin Rudd telling Hillary Clinton to prepare to use force against China should things go south is "threat neutral?" Obama and Gillard's press conference, November 2011, and US Marines rotating in out of Darwin was because both leaders thought China was threat neutral?

I have decided not to continue with this discussion because I do not plan to engage in a conversation where the scope is ever evolving and that inevitably makes it a meaningless conversation. For example, the scope was about the recent white paper and its implications. In contrast I have no interest of getting into what Rudd or Hillary might have said. I know you like to talk about geopolitical issues but unless there are clear limiters on the discussion, that just ends up talking about everything and anything.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I have decided not to continue with this discussion because I do not plan to engage in a conversation where the scope is ever evolving and that inevitably makes it a meaningless conversation. For example, the scope was about the recent white paper and its implications. In contrast I have no interest of getting into what Rudd or Hillary might have said. I know you like to talk about geopolitical issues but unless there are clear limiters on the discussion, that just ends up talking about everything and anything.
You're free to engage, discuss, debate, or not. But, it's unrealistic for you to believe you could make false claims like '2000-2014 is irrelevant because Australia viewed China as threat neutral' and not be called to task for it.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Cantabria class or very close again a Spanish ship after Hobbart, Canberra this AOR do 19500 t max, 175 m long carry 8600 t fuel, 240t ammo Spanish Navy have one.
Australian Sirius is a big oiler but don' t refuel ships in ammo.


Australia selects Navantia for new replenishment ship

Spanish shipbuilder Navantia has been selected to construct two replenishment ships for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), Minister for Defence Marise Payne has confirmed.

In comments provided to IHS Jane's by her office on 11 March, Payne said Navantia has been chosen as the preferred tenderer for the replenishment ship requirement, known as SEA 1654 Phase 3, and that the company will now be invited to participate in the "Offer Definition and Improvement Activity [ODIA] and negotiations".

"The tender process is ongoing. Following the conduct of the ODIA and negotiations, Defence will return to government for consideration of Second Pass approval, likely in mid-2016," she said. The programme received preliminary first pass approval in June 2014.

According to the recently published Integrated Investment Program that accompanied the defence white paper, the replenishment ship programme is valued at AUD1 billion to AUD2 billion, including operations and sustainment. Payne said local industry will receive a portion of this funding for unspecified services.

"Tender documents identified the need for Australian industry capability for both the proposed acquisition and support contracts," she said. "Local Australian industry content under the acquisition contract is estimated to provide a combined value of in excess of AUD100 million."
Payne said the two replenishment ships are required by the RAN "as soon as possible", but that the "previous government was advised that Australian shipyards do not have the capacity to complete the ships in the required time given the size of the ship and the limitations of the shiplift and yard capacity at Osborne [facilities operated by state-owned ASC in South Australia]."

SEA 1654 Phase 3 seeks to replace the RAN supply ships HMAS Success (OR 304) and HMAS Sirius (O 266) with off-the-shelf acquisitions. To meet the requirement Navantia offered the RAN a design proposal based on the Spanish Navy's auxiliary oiler replenishment ship SPS Cantabria , which entered service in 2011.

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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
6th ANZAC modernized on 8


HMAS Parramatta, the fifth Anzac class frigate built for Australia and the sixth to enter the Anti-Ship Missile Defence Upgrade programme has commenced preparations to undock in mid April.
...
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Hugh White succinctly detailed major problems with Australia buying Japanese submarines: "We are very unlikely to seriously jeopardise our links with Beijing to do Japan any favours."

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Many people in Canberra think we should partner with Japan to build our new submarines, whether or not they offer the best boats for the money, because Japan's bid is much more than a commercial deal. It's the basis for a closer strategic commitment as well, so they think we'd get two birds with one stone.

But there are big risks in this, both to our submarine capability and to our relations with Japan. We need to understand those risks before taking a decision.

We are very unlikely to seriously jeopardise our links with Beijing to do Japan any favours.

Supporters of Japan's bid think that working with it to build Australia's most vital military capability would transform the already-growing defence relationship into a virtual military alliance. They think, and sometimes even say, we need this alliance to protect ourselves from China.

This is how the Abe government sees it, too. Tokyo's hard sell constantly stresses the strategic advantages to both countries of an even tighter "special strategic partnership". In fact, it says this is why it is breaking the post-war taboo on major arms exports to bid for the contract. It is not in it for the money.

We must be quite clear about this. Tokyo expects that in return for its help to build our submarines, it would receive not just many of billions of dollars, but clear understandings that Australia will support Japan politically, strategically and even militarily against China. That is why Japan is bidding.

This is the big difference between Japan and its two European rivals. The French and Germans just want our money. The Japanese want much more. As Tony Abbott said in Tokyo recently 'For Japan this submarine deal is strategic: for the others, it's commercial.' And he ought to know, because he has always been the Japanese option's most ardent champion.

So before we decide whether to select the Japanese bid, we have to ask if an alliance with Japan is good for Australia. Would it be a big additional benefit, or a big additional cost? Advocates say it's a benefit. They think a close bond with Japan will strengthen both countries' alliances with America and send a clear message to Beijing that we are determined to stand together against its challenge to the regional order.

Faced with this, they think Beijing will back off. Then America's leadership in Asia would be restored, and everything would return to the way it used to be before China got stroppy. In other words, supporters of an alliance with Japan are sure it would never be tested, because simply creating it would help ensure that China's threat would disappear. And if that happens, it matters much less whose submarines we buy, because they won't be needed.

But will things work out this way? That depends on whether Washington, with or without others' support, really can convince China to back off. Maybe it can, if China is already heading for a major economic and political crisis, as many assume. But Beijing has weathered looming crises before, and President Xi Jinping's resolve to expand China's international power is very clear.

Meanwhile, the United States' resolve and capacity look, at best, a little uncertain. Will Xi be intimidated by a country that talks so big and then acts so timidly in the South China Sea, and that comes even this close to anointing Donald Trump? And will an Australia-Japan alliance really make much difference to his calculations?

It's much more likely that China will not be deterred by any messages we send through buying submarines and building an alliance with Japan. Instead, it will keep claiming more political and strategic weight in Asia, and tensions will keep rising. And what would an alliance with Japan mean then? Is it wise for us to commit ourselves to support Japan against China if, as is quite likely, strategic tensions between them keep growing?

We may share a commitment to democracy, but how sure are we that our interests will always coincide with Japan's against China? How willing would we be, ultimately, to take Japan's side in a war, and send our forces – including our submarines – to fight alongside them against China?

These are not hypothetical questions. In the new power politics of the Asian Century, they are very real, and we have to take them seriously because they are certainly taken seriously in Tokyo. An alliance of the kind Tokyo clearly seeks would mortgage Australia's relationship with China, and indeed our entire future in Asia, to the troubled future of China-Japan relations. This is, quite obviously, not in our interests.

In fact, the real problem with linking the subs project with a Japanese alliance is not the risk that the alliance would hold, and we would sacrifice our own interests to support Japan against China. It is the near-certainty that alliance would fail because we wouldn't be willing to do that.

In reality, no matter what Tony Abbott might believe, Australia is not going to give Japan the strategic support it wants. We are very unlikely to seriously jeopardise our links with Beijing to do Japan any favours – let alone go to war with China at Japan's behest. So we would let Japan down.

And that has huge implications for the submarine deal. Japan is only willing to share its ultra-sensitive submarine secrets because it expects us to be its close ally. If we don't give Japan what it expects from the deal, we won't get what we expect from it: unstinting help to make sure our submarines project succeeds.

What kind of co-operation will we get from Japan if in say, five or 10 years, with the project well under way but no subs yet delivered, Japan faces a confrontation with China and we don't give it the support it expects? Why wouldn't Japan walk away from the project, or start putting tight limits on what it is willing to share with us?

That would be a disaster for the submarine project, and for our relations with Japan. So we'd be much better off keeping them separate. The beauty of the German and French bids is that their bids are so much simpler. They are only in it for the money, and that's a good thing, because that is a price we know we are willing to pay.

Hugh White is an Age columnist and professor of strategic studies at the Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, ANU.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Hugh White succinctly detailed major problems with Australia buying Japanese submarines: "We are very unlikely to seriously jeopardise our links with Beijing to do Japan any favours."

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Hugh White has always been a pro PRC advocate so his opinion piece will always be biased as such.

Here is an opinion piece he had written three years ago.

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Brumby

Major
Hugh White has always been a pro PRC advocate so his opinion piece will always be biased as such.

Here is an opinion piece he had written three years ago.
I agree. Hugh White basically gravitates toward an appeasement approach although that could be argued as being realist. There is a more recent paper authored by 12 different people (including Hugh White) which provides a more comprehensive debate over the Europe vs Japan equation and Australian's security in the procurement of the submarines.
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