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SouthernSky

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Further indication that the RAN's future frigate will be based around the F105 hull.

A PLAN to save Australia’s ship building industry by bringing forward construction of eight potent new frigates for the Royal Australian Navy is being considered by the Abbott government.

This option to bridge the so-called “valley of death” for shipbuilding would mean constructing sections of some of the new frigates when the hulls of the three air warfare destroyers (AWDs) are completed. That would mean the 7000-tonne frigates would use the same hulls as the destroyers so that they could be built with the existing equipment and the same workforce.

The sections, or “blocks” can be built in different shipyards and then welded together.

This option will be discussed in a speech to be made by Defence Minister David Johnston to key defence industry figures in Canberra today.

The valley of death is the tag given to the point when current defence contracts run out with the completion of the AWDs and two giant landing ships. Companies say they will have to sack thousands of skilled workers unless more ships are ordered.

That follow’s last night’s warning by Royal Australian Air Force chief Geoff Brown that the world was entering a period of political and economic instability “which will shape a potentially volatile and dangerous security environment, especially in our region”.

“Of particular concern to Australia is the rising tension in the South China Sea where our vital interests are directly engaged,” Air Marshal Brown told The Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

He said air power was the most agile and responsive military instrument available to government.

The use of air power by the US to save refugees trapped on Iraq’s Mount Sinjar had demonstrated how decisive it could be.

Senator Johnston will tell the industry representatives today the AWD project is running 21 months late and more than $360 million over budget.

He stresses the option of building the frigates in Australia *depends on the shipbuilding industry demonstrating that it can complete the destroyers without further cost overruns or delays.

“This is to ensure everything is in place to allow a continued naval shipbuilding industry in Australia,” he will tell the Australian Business Defence Industry Group.

“All we are asking is that industry demonstrates it can meet an acceptable benchmark for cost and productivity.

“Part of the work on the future frigate program is to examine whether we can commit to the construction of some early blocks to ensure there is no break in production overall.”

Senator Johnston says no decision has been made on the design of the navy’s new submarines but work is progressing well on *options. The government has *already provided $78m for preliminary work on the new frigates.

The new class was set out in the Rudd government’s 2009 defence white paper which intended they’d be operational by the mid-2020s.

The ships were to carry cruise missiles and they were likely to be equipped with a system able to *destroy ballistic missiles.

Co-operation on such a system was announced in Sydney last week at the annual AUSMIN talks between Australia’s foreign affairs and defence ministers and their US counterparts.

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Blitzo

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A frigate based on the hobart hull? That would be... interesting.

I suppose they will simply be armed lightly to fit the frigate classification, but I expect they will be more expensive than an actual frigate sized ship, simply due to more materials, more powerful engines needed, etc.
 

SouthernSky

Junior Member
A frigate based on the hobart hull? That would be... interesting.

I suppose they will simply be armed lightly to fit the frigate classification, but I expect they will be more expensive than an actual frigate sized ship, simply due to more materials, more powerful engines needed, etc.

Frigate classification is open for conjecture. Take Iran for example.

I'm not sure I'd use the term "armed lightly" either. They will have an emphasis on ASW warfare and will likely retain all the abilities of an Adelaide class FFG with an increase in main gun size to 127mm. VLS capacity likely to be less than Hobart AWD's. ASM likely to be Harpoon and embarked MH-60R's will also add to capabilities.

More expensive? Given the endless variables it's hard to say. Our politicians do have a fondness for expensive defence acquisitions though. :)
 
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Blitzo

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Obviously frigate designations are variable, but there are fewer countries which have commissioned a heavier armed "destroyer" and "frigate" based off the same displacement hull, with the only difference being their extent of armament.

There are obviously many navies with "frigates" in destroyer weight bands, but they typically do not also have heavier armed destroyers of the same or similar displacement to act as the primary surface combatant, rather their frigates are their primary high end surface combatant.
 

asif iqbal

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RAN is also looking into building a new set of replenishment tankers

Good addition to the AEGIS DDG and LHD
 

Jeff Head

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Well, that Hobart hull can certainly accommodate the RANs needs for their multi-role, ASW centric FFG.

It seems like the over-riding consideration is avoiding a halt to Australian ship building for several years. If they use the same hulls and equipment they will save significant sums over retraining a new work force later and retooling for a different design.

A vessel with perhaps 16 or 24 VLS, and then the emphasis on ASW with a 5" gun, eight canister ASMs, two helos, and the appropriate bow and towed array sonars, would be a powerful vessel with room for future growth/updates.

But can the RAN afford it...and if they move up the acquisition, will they then retire the existing FFGs early, which they have pent fortunes upgrading?

Interesting set of quandaries and decisions.
 

Scratch

Captain
Well, if they're using the same sized hull with less equipment and weapons in it, maybe there's more space left for additional boarding parties and RHIBs for even a small assault force perhaps.
Then again, the Type 26 FFG, wich I believes gears roughly in the same direction as the australian new FFG, is the same size and weight as the Hobart as well.
 

Blitzo

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Well, if they're using the same sized hull with less equipment and weapons in it, maybe there's more space left for additional boarding parties and RHIBs for even a small assault force perhaps.
Then again, the Type 26 FFG, wich I believes gears roughly in the same direction as the australian new FFG, is the same size and weight as the Hobart as well.

Thing is, there is a meaningful difference in displacement between the RN's Type 26 and Type 45, whereas a RAN FFG based on the hobart hull would likely displace the same, or at least very close, to the standard Hobart DDG.

I'm sure a hobart hull with frigate class weapons and sensors will have lower production and operating costs than the true Hobart DDG, but those costs will still be noticeably higher than a smaller, more traditional sized frigate. I think the question is whether that difference in expenditure will be worth the additional retention of Australian shipyard activity (as well as additional capability of a larger frigate versus a smaller one of course).


The closest comparison I can think of for this plan, is the German F124 and F125 classes of "frigates," where both are of similar displacement but where F124 is equipped with more advanced radars and air defence capabilities with F125 is more of a long endurance multirole, lower intensity ship. But even then, only one more F125 is being built compared to F124, so it isn't quite a high/low combination per se like the Aussie plan where 8 FFGs are proposed versus only the 3 DDGs.
 

Scratch

Captain
I certainly do agree with this. I wasn't really aiming at a difference between ship classes within one service. My point was that the Type 26 was designed from the beginning to do roughly the same thing the new AUS FFG is supposed to do. But maybe I'm mistaken here.
Anyway, with the Type 26 being designed from the beginning to do it's job with that size, I think a (ASW oriented) multi-mission FFG using the Hobart hull probably isn't a big waste of space, because that same space apparently has it's use in a different ship doing a similar job.
I aso didn't think some extra emtpy space won't add that much to the cost, plus besides keeping the workers trained, you also save the money for a new design. However much that actually is.
 
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