Attempt of smuggling parts of J-11/Su-30 from russia to china via finland
- Thread starter Gollevainen
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"And what comes my persistance that people would use USED parts, I wonder, is the word used somehow stuck in your head and you just need to pour it all occasion? Becouse there haven't been any talks about used parts. I'm not stating that aircrafts are manufactured from used pars, not in China nor anywhere else..."
And yet it is quite implied. Backdoor market is used parts. It is impossible to buy from the backdoors of a company that happens to be Russian government owned and using parts that is tailored specifically to a plane that is more advanced than what the Russian Air Force has in service. Given the 300 plus Flankers in China, the nearly 100 Su-30s and China's large production program, these specially tailored parts and components have to be manufactured in volume, which makes these activities far too visible to be extra legal.
You wanted a discussion about the article. You got it. I poked big holes in the article and while you stand up to YLE's supposed "credibility" while the the mistakes are glaring in your face.
I pointed out major mistakes in your article and you go puffing about Chinese "pride" for heaven's sakes? Frankly I think you are the one who is not willing to admit mistakes and prefer the theatre of a highly conspirational view of the Chinese "threat" with backdoor sneaks and spies. You have for instanced, distrusted the crebility of people who accurately and correctly pointed out for instance, the installation of SA-N-12s in Chinese destroyers, while accepting the credibility of an article that has fundamental flaws once it is crosschecked. In my book, that does not portray your judgement and credibiltiy in good light.
Go ahead and check it up. Estonia does not have Su-30s for parts to be stolen from. Malaysia and Bangladesh do not have Flankers that would need parts to begin with.
Yeah, you know where Irkut is, which makes me wonder why you would even speculate on such a possibility in the first place. You just truly didn't know until now. Maybe you didn't know it was China wanted the MKKs to be built by KnAPPO despite it was Sukhoi who originally assigned Irkut to be the Su-30contractor.
And yet it is quite implied. Backdoor market is used parts. It is impossible to buy from the backdoors of a company that happens to be Russian government owned and using parts that is tailored specifically to a plane that is more advanced than what the Russian Air Force has in service. Given the 300 plus Flankers in China, the nearly 100 Su-30s and China's large production program, these specially tailored parts and components have to be manufactured in volume, which makes these activities far too visible to be extra legal.
You wanted a discussion about the article. You got it. I poked big holes in the article and while you stand up to YLE's supposed "credibility" while the the mistakes are glaring in your face.
I pointed out major mistakes in your article and you go puffing about Chinese "pride" for heaven's sakes? Frankly I think you are the one who is not willing to admit mistakes and prefer the theatre of a highly conspirational view of the Chinese "threat" with backdoor sneaks and spies. You have for instanced, distrusted the crebility of people who accurately and correctly pointed out for instance, the installation of SA-N-12s in Chinese destroyers, while accepting the credibility of an article that has fundamental flaws once it is crosschecked. In my book, that does not portray your judgement and credibiltiy in good light.
Go ahead and check it up. Estonia does not have Su-30s for parts to be stolen from. Malaysia and Bangladesh do not have Flankers that would need parts to begin with.
Yeah, you know where Irkut is, which makes me wonder why you would even speculate on such a possibility in the first place. You just truly didn't know until now. Maybe you didn't know it was China wanted the MKKs to be built by KnAPPO despite it was Sukhoi who originally assigned Irkut to be the Su-30contractor.
Backdoor market, or black market, as we call it is for anything, from pirate stuff to stolen used stuff and stolen new stuff. You cannot say certain that they cannot be new stuff, not in russians case (as prejudice it may sound).
The mistakes are coloured by your obinion, and are just your interpretation of the matter. It's down to who we believe, and I choose YLE over a man who I know nothing about...
And what comes my admittments...I have no passion towards chinese military, only great intress. My selfesteem wont change direction or other if china happens to have some great technologigal marvel or not. I try to be as objective as possiple to all news I hear. In chinese case you cannot hide from statements that are way out there...Like S-400 already in chinese serivice, J-XX flying next year and so on. It makes us "foreingers" bit sceptic and in the end we doupt everything. Trying to impicate the "chinese threat" to me is pointless, like I said I have nothing against chinese buildup and have no larger-than-life feelings towards it.
So yeas, I'm sceptic, I wont believe anything (at least anything coming form "respectfull guys over internet") untill provided solid proof. The Sa-N-12 case, if I recall was that someone claimed Sa-N-12 being fielded by china and I asked proof, they showed a picture of SA-N-7 so ofcourse i disbelived. Now I've seen lots of solid evidence that the Grizzly system actually is in service so I have no doupt any longer. Same case was with 115 & 116, I first doupted it but then solid evidence was layed over me and I admitted being wrong.
I fail to see your point over this matter about my sceptism becouse frankly you all should even try to see things bit more objectively. I've noticed that my everlasting doupt is a good incentive to get our members seek more solid evidence to back-up their claims. In this particular thread the things have turned upside down but your willingness to "co-operate" is 0 %. So lets drop the issue untill further damage is done, alright?
FreeAsia2000
Junior Member
Agreed.
Lets be objective about the matter. It's not worth having arguments
with people about things when none of us have sufficient info.
and besides it's summer people !
Lets be objective about the matter. It's not worth having arguments
with people about things when none of us have sufficient info.
and besides it's summer people !
Hi.. it been a while since i post.. been busy with work.
There a few question I wanna point out!
Why would China smuggling parts of J-11/Su-30 from Russia via any country. If they could easily reverse engineering these parts off one of the older Russia build fighter or from one of these Russia kits.
SMuggle miltary equipment is different from household good. If China really did want to smuggle some military part from Russia is most likely it would be rerouted though a few country, because it it was ever caught on the CHN RU broader it badly hurt the two country relationship. IF it was ever caught in another country China can easy dismiss any claim as a CHINA THREAT theory.
I am a Chinese by blood but I am like Golly doubt every thing useless u can prove it.
There a few question I wanna point out!
Why would China smuggling parts of J-11/Su-30 from Russia via any country. If they could easily reverse engineering these parts off one of the older Russia build fighter or from one of these Russia kits.
SMuggle miltary equipment is different from household good. If China really did want to smuggle some military part from Russia is most likely it would be rerouted though a few country, because it it was ever caught on the CHN RU broader it badly hurt the two country relationship. IF it was ever caught in another country China can easy dismiss any claim as a CHINA THREAT theory.
I am a Chinese by blood but I am like Golly doubt every thing useless u can prove it.
That argument is very doubtful. If China wants to actually hide the shipment, they would not be putting "China" in the destination manifest. That would be outright stupid.
It does not matter where the border is, if China does not want to get caught, why put "China" in the destination manifest?
But there is another kind of "Chinese" that would be most interested in this product. You know, the ones from the "Republic of China".
If they can fully assemble a working Su-27 radar inside laboratories in Taiwan, it would be a major intelligence bonanza for the ROC and one that could give them a decisive advantage.
It does not matter where the border is, if China does not want to get caught, why put "China" in the destination manifest?
But there is another kind of "Chinese" that would be most interested in this product. You know, the ones from the "Republic of China".
If they can fully assemble a working Su-27 radar inside laboratories in Taiwan, it would be a major intelligence bonanza for the ROC and one that could give them a decisive advantage.
This is just your assumption cause no one ever said that China was on the destination manifest and there is no evidence which can show us where the finnish got there info from.
It's again your assumption that the shippment are radar part.
Even if it radar part there are quite a few different rader which are used on the Su-27 and the PLAAF is also planing to replace the J-11 radar with Shedian-10 cueing them with SD-10. It really doesn't make sense or practical for the Tawianese to try assemble a working Su-27 radar and gather intelligence of any kind unless it the radar which China would be using in the future (Shedian-10)
Crobato try tell me something I dun know.
Nethappy said:
And how you suppose they would know that the shipments are supposedly destined specifically to Malaysia, Bangladesh and China, eh?
Wrong again.
Shedian 10 is the name of the SD-10 missile itself. It is not the name of the radar. If you fully understand the nature of the radar designations used by the factories and as well as the PLA designation for the radars, you would know that Shedian 10 is not a valid name for a PLA radar. As a matter of fact, the rumored radar for the J-11 is the KLJ-4, which is more in line as the proper factory designation, and the PLA designation for such would have been been Type 1474, as "14" indicates institute of origin. NRIET or Lab 14 designates fighter radars as "KLJ" and no way they would call it Shedian.
Why would Taiwan be interested in a full working Su-27 radar is because the great majority of China's Flankers still use this radar. This includes all the Su-27s, MKKs, UBKs that were directly imported from Russia, and all the J-11s that have been built so far. The Chinese version of the J-11 radar is at best, a minor modification or adjustment of the original Su-27, and even the MKK's radar is still a variant of the original Su-27's SUV-27 or N001E Myech radar.
And these are telling you things that you didn't know.
Well there can be a billion reason why them name Malaysia, Bangladesh and China. You Just can't said something u can't prove.
RIght I messed up my type. I was supposed to said they be more instersted in the New China J-11 radar and the SD radar.
Anyway any modification to a radar of any kind can change it characteristic as a whole and we dun have any hard eveidence to said what the PLA has done to the Radar. So u can't really persume dat the Chinese version of the J-11 radar is at best, a minor modification or adjustment of the original Su-27. Anyway I dun need to argue with u there. The SD radar would also be a great insterest to the ROC.
Nethappy said:
Name one. Name me a reason why not a hundred and fifty other countries around the globe.
Does not eliminate their interest on the old one too, since there are well over 300 planes already delivered and in service with this radar type, and unlikely to be upgraded with the new radar which will only be going to new planes.
I don't think "SD" is the name for the radar, although I'm sure we are referring to the same thing. China actually has three SD-10/PL-12 capable radars, one on the J-10, one on the J-8F and one on the JH-7. The ones on the J-10 and J-8F belong to the same family and made by the same manufacturer in Nanjing. These are the KLJ series. KLJ-1, KLJ-3, KLJ-6, KLJ-7, etc,. The one on the FC-1 is very likely to be a KLJ radar and so is the J-11. This institute, NRIET, also made the radar on the AWACS.
The one on the JH-7 is the JL-10A, or some say, JL-15, and comes from a different manufacturer, this time by the name Leihua. Ironically, this institute is the one that happened to design the SD-10 guidance system and datalink. It also appears to be in competition with the other company mentioned above to provide radars for the J-11s. That's been confirmed by the Russians who mentioned that there are at least two companies competiting for the contract.
We do have some hard evidence what the Russians did for the PLAAF radars and their various customizations. It's been described in Jane's by the way. The modification is simple. It allows the radar to use the R-77 ARH missile; the standard radar doesn't. Basically the modification is more of an attachment, an add on subsystem. There is hard evidence---in photos actually---that PLAAF Su-27 and J-11 cockpits contain an extra MFD on top of the basic Su-27 cockpit. This MFD is most likely used with the added radar functionality used to support the R-77. The MKK radar takes this modification further by adding yet another subsystem that supports air to ground weapons. Yet the fundamental system remains the same.
Nonetheless an on hand technology analysis of a working N001 Myech is worth its weight in gold when it comes to ELINT and ECM applications.
In theory it's possible to make the SD-10 or PL-12 missile work in a modified Myech above simply by making the SD-10's guidance protocol compatible with the R-77's and the software compatible with the Myech's software. Also remember there was a story about a Chinese engineer that managed to successfully disassemble the software code of the radar
My point is that its not even necessary at all to install a new radar just to use the SD-10 missile on the J-11s, when a much simpler and cost effective method is available.
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