Attempt of smuggling parts of J-11/Su-30 from russia to china via finland

Frankly I think you are beginning to lower my opinion about your credibility here. You don't show anything to suggest you have a faintest idea of engineering, military procurement, quality control protocols and procedures. Why smuggle and lose valuable official warranty and service support?

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I've stated several times that i'm no aviation expert, nor i've never tryed to sound like one, unlike many others (don't even bother to take that personaly)
And i suggest that we end this commenting about our personas, becouse thrust me, i'm the last person in this forum whom you would want to make personal attacks.

Ignoring facts? You are the one who is ignoring logic. You have not addressed a single one of my five to seven questions directly. Frankly, Chinese members in internet forums have been a lot more correct in showing what is happening on the PLA than all the laughable Western media and expert opinion which never gets things right even in a measly 10 percent. I remember how you were questioning China ever getting the Shtil-1 when Chinese internet forum members have direct evidence of such. It seems to me when you are confronted with serious questioning, you are the one heading to insult land, and going yadayada over the media's credibility---by the way, all media is not directly credible---I have seen far too many mistakes even by so called credible media.

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The reason why I didn't awnser your questions directly is rather simple, I don't want to end up to useless arguments over things which we disagree. Thats becouse my mod status makes me juridicaly challenged. I don't want to end up getting personal insulting and flaming fights myself, becouse i'm the one supposed to stop them.

But what comes to media credibility, well like i said, I trust the source which earns it best. It's true that media is often in wring tracks...yeas, but how do you proove it? I've said what I believe its to be but you refuse to believe me and keeps asking more. I cannot give you more, that why I opened this thread so that we could teterm what is behind all this.

Now I admitt, I don't know more that the YLE have given from this subject, nor have I've ever pretended to act othervise. So it's up to you now. Show us how well the "guys in Internet" beats our government official news channel?

Why did our custom intercept parts going from russia to china? Becouse I do thrust our border guard knowing what they are doing and that their investigations over this matter is solid. There was an interception of Sukhoi parts proffesionaly smuggled from Russia to china, thats a fact.
What you base your arguments that this isen't so other than the refusal of beliving it? You make comments aobut my knowlidge, on what bases? Making comments like that requires that youself know what you are talking about, othervise it's against the rules. Why should i believe you over YLE? Lets hear your version over the matter, but if it's just some BS about our officials don't know shit and bla bla bla, don't bother...

crobato said:

As for Sea Dog

1. The smuggling attempts of parts from the US is more of intelligence and technology gathering, not to supply parts for the Chinese armed forces.

2. A lot of stuff are also headed for Hong Kong but it does not mean that their final destination is the mainland China. Hong Kong is often used as a transhipment to another final destination. Recently the carcass of a MiG-29 fighter was discovered by the Hong Kong police in one of the vessels ported there. I really doubt that the MiG-29 is headed to China at all, considering Hong Kong is their territory already and won't make a fuss about it. It's obvious that the plane is headed somewhere else. It should be noted that the smuggling between China and Russia occurs mainly on the borders.

3. China has no need to smuggle parts of their Sukhois when they can get it formally and brand new with complete support and warranty. Anyone who is trying to get parts for Sukhois through a backchannel can only be an operator that can be running a secret squadron of Sukhois in a clandestine fashion. I think this is much more likely to be a Western nation which I leave you up to guess.

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1. Thanks for the reply crobato. There have been people arrested in the USA just recently trying to smuggle an F-16C engine to an airfield in China. Probably as a way to help with their engineering production of domestic engine designs. I'm not sure if it was the -229 engine or what, but the final destination was China. In addition in the past there was some helo parts "transferred" from the US to China. Somebody please refresh my memory because I don't remember when.

2. I believe this Mig-29 was headed to a museum in the USA. I read that somewhere but don't remember where. But I see where your coming from in this second statement. And no, I didn't realize that smuggling from Russia to China occured only on their respective borders. And I'm not trying to blow a hole in your argument, but if that's a known quantity, wouldn't it make sense to try another avenue? I mean there was a solid investigation into this matter (J-11 parts smuggled to China). You just can't discount that.

3. Interesting theory. Perhaps true. You're right, it doesn't make sense if you can get the product from the vendor and not risk your business relationship with your supplier. So my only question is to the differences between locally manufactured parts versus the supply chain from Sukhoi itself. I think that's what others are asking also. It is a legitimate question and perhaps none of us truly know the answer.

As for me, I'm just curious, that's all.

Sea Dog said:

3. Interesting theory. Perhaps true. You're right, it doesn't make sense if you can get the product from the vendor and not risk your business relationship with your supplier. So my only question is to the differences between locally manufactured parts versus the supply chain from Sukhoi itself. I think that's what others are asking also. It is a legitimate question and perhaps none of us truly know the answer.

As for me, I'm just curious, that's all.

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Reason why China might be doing this is because of Russian unwillingness to transfer-of-technology of major systems that can China can reverse engineer and resell again. For example, local engine production for Su27/30 was not allowed to China. A large number of sub-systems for Su27, made in China, are still imported from Russia.

Also China has poor record for maintainig Intellectual property rights. They just dont want to buy, they want to remake and resell it, that will ultimately harm the original vendor.:coffee:

Sea Dog said:

1. Thanks for the reply crobato. There have been people arrested in the USA just recently trying to smuggle an F-16C engine to an airfield in China. Probably as a way to help with their engineering production of domestic engine designs. I'm not sure if it was the -229 engine or what, but the final destination was China. In addition in the past there was some helo parts "transferred" from the US to China. Somebody please refresh my memory because I don't remember when.

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And many of these were said to be Taiwan nationals. What makes you think it is the People's Republic of China and not the Republic of China that is the culprit. The problem in the US there is no distinguishing between an ROC or a PROC national.

Taiwan happens to engage themselves with their own indigenous programs, researching and developing anything from cruise missiles to radars and aero engines. These stuff are not themselves encouraged by the US who is trying to maintain a peaceful stability in the region, and has a tendency to withhold certain types of weapons from Taiwan.

I'm sure China would be interested to study a -229. So would Taiwan.

2. I believe this Mig-29 was headed to a museum in the USA. I read that somewhere but don't remember where. But I see where your coming from in this second statement. And no, I didn't realize that smuggling from Russia to China occured only on their respective borders. And I'm not trying to blow a hole in your argument, but if that's a known quantity, wouldn't it make sense to try another avenue? I mean there was a solid investigation into this matter (J-11 parts smuggled to China). You just can't discount that.

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It would not make sense to try another avenue when border smuggling has had its success. There is also a lot of Chinese stuff that is smuggled across the Russian border and sold in Russia. There also appears to be a lot of illegal Chinese immigrants in Siberia, so you can guess that the border is not very well policed.

There was an espionage case yes, but it did not involve the smuggling of parts per se to be used on aircraft. Rather, someone was caught with blueprints and other technical information on the way to the Chinese Siberian border.

3. Interesting theory. Perhaps true. You're right, it doesn't make sense if you can get the product from the vendor and not risk your business relationship with your supplier. So my only question is to the differences between locally manufactured parts versus the supply chain from Sukhoi itself. I think that's what others are asking also. It is a legitimate question and perhaps none of us truly know the answer.

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That is not the question of locally manufactured parts. Most of these parts have to be sourced from Sukhoi and various contractors. It is impossible to obtain brand new parts without the primary vendor and manufacturer knowing it, and without the Russian government knowing it because they own the entire enchilada. If China had bought brand new parts from Sukhoi and contractors in a formal basis, then the order is perfectly legal and it would not be called smuggling. No one has the right to intercept that transhipment. And even then, there are plenty of ships moving between Russia and China.

The Chinese still has a lot of the older Su-27s as well as the older J-11s that were made from kits with a high Russian content. Just because they had to source from Russia does not MEAN that the parts are for new planes.

Chinese statements have not been very confident of Sukhoi's quality and reliability by experience, hence they are trying to build better ones on their own. They generally never had a high view about "Russian quality". If you look at the J-11s, their fit and finish surpasses the Russian made ones and it also appears that J-11s have a better reliability record than the Russian made planes. J-11s are still being made in China but China has stopped buying Su-30MKKs. That tells you something.

With this in the background, why would they look for second hand parts which will only offer a greater probability of breakdown.

I think its a whole lot less sinister than everyone thinks it is.. or a whole lot more if you're in the PLA. China is an extremely corrupt place and its military is no exception. I think the best explaination for the Russian parts is that someone thought they could get cheap surplus smuggled parts into the country then make it look like an order from Sukkhoi, the government pays out and someone strikes it rich.

China, like Russia, lags far behind the West is repair of parts, but against it's probably because there was no incentive in the communist system to overhaul parts. Now the 'worn' parts of PLA jets are lying in giant heaps, as China cannot find the technology to repair them. That would be the greatest limiting factor in any war the cost of turbine parts...etc...those babys are not cheap to replace...

I have the feeling you don't know anything about repairs and maintenance. Who the hell "repairs" worn out parts? Aircraft do not repair worn our parts. They are replaced for safety reasons no matter what. Even in Russia, parts are replaced, not repaired. You produce a lot of cheap parts, then replace and dispose of the worn out ones as much as possible. You don't repair worn out parts period.

The J-6s for example, never had engines "repaired". They were just replaced. Replacing is more cheaper, faster and provides better quality.

As for the engines on the J-11s, China had for years, obtained the rights and know how to overhaul them. Why would you "smuggle" parts. Maybe if you actually know how business runs---and the PLA still functions like a business---it is far cheaper to get a formal order based on huge quantity volume discounts. Order like 10,000 fan blades or something, all new and straight from the factory. Smuggling has never produced or delivered products cheap. Greasing for corruption carries its own immense costs---you think that to bribe is free?

Again Crobato, you should ease your temper and perhaps retain from judging who knows, and what knows...

Seccondly to the point, the news talked about parts that are most likely going to production (mean to new planes being manufactured) than just for spares...

And why would you need second hard parts for brand new aircraft, when you can buy them in bulk from the factory, cheaper in volume, get better quality and support? And just for your information, Sukhoi has tech representatives and advisers all over the factories as part of the licensing and support contract.

Show some common sense please.

second hard parts

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Again, there haven't been talk about seccond hand parts...I don't know where you get that from...

...And It's not Sukhoi that manufactures the chinese planes. The article mentioned Su-30, and chinese Su-30MKK are made by Knaapo in Kosmolensk-na-Amur...perhaps they wanted some parts made by Irkuts factory (which manufactures the Indian Su-30MKI).

You see (and you propaply know already) these two planes are in fact entirely different aircraft, only comon factor are the name and that they both derived from the SU-27. The Su-30MKI was the orginal Su-30 export version, tailored by the Irkuts factory (which was assigned to build the two-seat flankers)to Indians need. Chinese in other had received their Su-30s from rival company which wanted its share form the potential export markets. Su-30MKK is based on the Su-35 airframe with some adoption of the Su-27UB which was also intended to be build in Komsomolensk in secondary solution. Where as the Su-30MKI benefits some western avionics and canards/thrust vectoring engines, the Su-30MKK relies to purely russian parts without the canard/TW techology.

So perhaps they wanted some parts used solely by the Irkuts manufactory line that wouldn't be possiple to gain without breaking the relations to Knaapo...Who knows, but the fact remains that they wanted something, to some purpose...othervice they wouldn't have got caught.

The more you dont even make sense. So lacking in sense at all it isnt funny.

Do you happen to know where Irkutsk is? Heres a clue. Look at China. Look at Mongolia. Just look at over the border just north of Mongolia. In fact the territory Irkut was once even belonged to Qing China. Now tell me why the heck would you smuggle parts from a city known as the "Shanghai of Siberia", across the entire Asian continent to Finland when you can pluck it over the long and poorly guarded border over Mongolia. Jeez. China is that close to Irkut.

The Su-30MKI still has a number of integration issues. Does not appear to me that the so called Western components were integrated at all, and if they were, they were not done in Irkut but in India.

Also you didnt seem to know that China"s Su-27UBKs are all sourced in Irkut. You also didn't seem to know that it was China who told Sukhoi in the first place, that they wanted KnAAPO to make the MKK when Sukhoi was in fact, assigning the original MKK contract to Irkut. KnAAPO also has its own canard and thrust vectoring technology. Call it the Su-37.