Ask anything Thread

ChineseToTheBone

New Member
Registered Member
Why do so many contemporary frigates worldwide have maximum speeds not even reaching thirty knots?
Would better engine systems drive the price up too much or are most navies concerned more with fuel efficiency?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
To increase the speed you can either streamline the hull or you can get engines with more power.
Steamlining the hull reduces internal space, so you get less space for weapons, and you get less consumables so decreased range.
To get more powerful engines you will probably use gas turbines. Those use more fuel than diesel engines. You also need more chimney area since turbines they require a higher air intake than diesels.

If you overdo things you get something like the Litoral Combat Ship. A ship without much free space so also with limited endurance and combat power.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why do so many contemporary frigates worldwide have maximum speeds not even reaching thirty knots?
Would better engine systems drive the price up too much or are most navies concerned more with fuel efficiency?

To state the obvious: speed determines ability to change location in a given time-scale.

In more practical terms it defines the ability to increase or decrease the range relative to your opponent. If you have higher speed than your opponent you will have freedom of maneuver and will retain initiative. If the opponent has higher speed you will never have the initiative unless you achieve surprise.

There are three fundamental time-scales to naval warfare, I'll classify them using land warfare terminology:
  • strategic - ships moving between battle zones (logistics range)
  • operational - ships moving in and out of battle zone (sensor range)
  • tactical - ships moving in and out of combat (weapon range) within a battle zone
Anti-ship missiles are relatively new development with regards to the timeline of generations of warships. The first AShMs were Soviet but they were excessively large or had very limited range. P-15 Termit had 40km maximum range. MM38 Exocet introduced in 1975 had 40km range. Otomat and Harpoon had ranges over 100km but also slower speed compared to other traditional solid-fuel missiles like P-15 or MM38. Swedish RBS-15 had range of only 70km and was introduced in the 1980s.

This means that until late 1970s guns were the primary weapon of ships and aviation the primary long-range delivery system. Until late1980s torpedo boats were still a standard type of ship in naval service of many countries. For example Sweden and Norway had large fleets of torpedo boats that were partly re-armed with AShMs.

Furthermore warships that operated during the Cold War were built in successive generations:
  • WW2 - designs from 1940s and 1950s
  • post-WW2 - designs from 1950s and 1960s - introduction of modern radar
  • early modern - designs from 1960s and 1970s - introduction of missiles
  • modern - designs from 1980s and 1990s - introduction of multi-role function and modularity, helicopters become standard
Only the 1970s designs began to incorporate AShM but since most ships still followed tactical requirements of the era - e.g. a ship with purely ASW role or AAW role - it wasn't until the 1990s and 2000s that ship design began to reflect the new tactical reality with AShM as primary weapon and anti-air missiles, EW and VLO as countermeasures.

This means that it wasn't until the 1990s and 2000s that ship classes could be designed with new tactical requirements which also involved AShMs with ranges above 40kms.

This means that until that moment all ships had the option to use their speed at the tactical scale to move outside the weapons range whether artillery or short-ranged AShMs. Simple radar which on smaller ships is limited by horizon also played a role. If a ship could speed up to 30-40knots (55-75km/h) and move out of range or even break contact (sensor range) there would be no battle. This is why Soviet Tarantul missile boats which were built well into 1980s had 40knots top speed. By 1990s with proliferation of helicopters, improvements in radar technology and networking of sensors it stopped being a viable tactic because the missiles outranged the maneuver and newer radars became more accurate and effective at longer ranges.

At that moment top speed at tactical scale stopped being useful and instead high march speeds allowing to exploit the operational scale became a priority.

With the development of marine diesels the design of ship power-plants also changed. Initially steam turbines and gas turbines (COGAG) were the most viable method of propulsion. When high-power diesels became viable it changed the economics of ship construction. Diesels are extremely efficient at low speeds used for strategic marches or regular cruising - 14 to 21 knots. The standard method for speeding up was adding a gas turbine as a booster (CODAG) but that came at additional cost in space and money. When diesels became capable of reaching 27 knots it simply became too expensive for many classes of ships to include a gas turbine.

For example until the 1980s many ASW ships would need a top speed to be able to catch up with a submarine detected by a sonobuoy. After helicopters became commonplace it made more sense to move at lower (quieter) speeds while sending helicopters ahead of the ship.

Presently gas turbines are necessary for generating power in large warships - DDG and larger. But for smaller ships diesels are fully capable of generating power sufficient to propel at 26-27 knots which is really all that is necessary for a patrol frigate or an ASW ship.

The higher speed of a destroyer is really more of a consequence of having a more potent propulsion system. It can move at 30knots but it almost never does because maxing out the system also wears it out faster. The one exception are ships intended for CVN excort - those need the top speed because a nuclear-powered carrier has a high top speed and is also a key target, the only one that still uses speed at a "tactical" scale - for a carrier. So if the CVN moves at 30+ knots then so must its escort, especially the AAW destroyers.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Like I said you can achieve 30 knots+ with just diesel engines. But you need to use streamlining. You need to increase the fineness ratio of the ship. You will get an extremely narrow ship design. For example the Type 053 can reach 32 knots with diesel engines.

1728613657168.jpeg

But because the hull is so narrow, you get extremely limited space on the ship to put equipment or consumables.
 

pipaster

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is there a specific thread for Taiwan Navy? Don't know where to put this rather interesting drone

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


No navy thread per say but the Taiwan Military News Reports is the most appropriate.

 

Staedler

Junior Member
Registered Member
Like I said you can achieve 30 knots+ with just diesel engines. But you need to use streamlining. You need to increase the fineness ratio of the ship. You will get an extremely narrow ship design. For example the Type 053 can reach 32 knots with diesel engines.

View attachment 137150

But because the hull is so narrow, you get extremely limited space on the ship to put equipment or consumables.

Correct, because speed and propulsive power necessary to achieve those speeds for surface combatants generally has a cubic relationship. Most of this is the "wavemaking" drag which in some sense is dependent on the entrance angle, aka countered by increasing fineness which increases skin drag in exchange - which is a square relationship so slightly better. The alternative is to increase engine power, but that is playing into a cubic relationship and the resulting massive increase in machinery volume. A problem when you have to also separate engine compartments to increase survivability.

At some point, there is no meaning to increasing ship speed because incremental cost is astoundingly expensive... and for what advantage? With weaponry (ASMs) that are so much faster than any ship could ever hope to be, there is really little to no tactical value in increased speed. In the age of big cannons, accuracy and range was so low than engagements could last hours. The maximum useful range of these weapons were in the range of 7-10 nmi, so a 5 knot difference (33 vs 28 kn or Iowa vs Yamato) covered from completely out of range to completely within range in 2 hours or close to the length of an actual engagement. That was actually tactically useful.

Nowadays, what difference does 10 knots make if the engagement duration might be just half a hour (or less)? The 40 knot ship has moved 9 km more than the 30 knot ship. That's like 15 seconds or less for a hypersonic missile and less than 1% of its maximum™ range.
 
Last edited:

Miyayaya

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is this the first time we see a PLAN surface group beyond the second island chain? (I suppose technically east of Japan is "beyond 2IC", but more specifically east of Iwo Jima/Guam)

1729156228188.png
 

lcloo

Captain
This could be the first time that a surface flottila (lead by Liaoning) deployed that far out to the East in all three (?) Taiwan blockade drills.

However, there have been many times such exercises involving PLAN aircraft carriers, DDG and FFGs in these locations, outside the Taiwan blockade drills. These Eastward positions close to Guam and South of the Ryukyu islands is a critical location to intercept foreign naval forces from Japanese main islands, Guam and Australia, who might attempt to intervent in re-unification of Taiwan.

In fact PLAN has been carrying out such exercises multiple time each year.

Since there has been only three(?) Taiwan blockade drills, the presence of Liaoning group at this locaton tend to attract more attentions.
 

Miyayaya

Junior Member
Registered Member
This could be the first time that a surface flottila (lead by Liaoning) deployed that far out to the East in all three (?) Taiwan blockade drills.

However, there have been many times such exercises involving PLAN aircraft carriers, DDG and FFGs in these locations, outside the Taiwan blockade drills. These Eastward positions close to Guam and South of the Ryukyu islands is a critical location to intercept foreign naval forces from Japanese main islands, Guam and Australia, who might attempt to intervent in re-unification of Taiwan.

In fact PLAN has been carrying out such exercises multiple time each year.

Since there has been only three(?) Taiwan blockade drills, the presence of Liaoning group at this locaton tend to attract more attentions.

Yes, but I'm talking about beyond the second island chain. East of Iwo Jima/Guam
 
Top