Arab Spring II in Egypt. The potential Civil War.

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Equation

Lieutenant General
What's gonna happen to Egypt if the Muslim Brotherhood or the opposition party to this soon to be new government administration will come to friction as they dual for new power and the course of actions for their country? Are the former President Morsi supporters will be protesting as well?
 

SteelBird

Colonel
It was from the beginning.

The Obama administration's foreign policy in Africa has been an abysmal failure, and has made that part of the world a much more dangerous place. He has gotten behind every wrong horse possible.

Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc. to name the largest screw-ups, and now it is coming home to roost on him. Some of the signs by the big crowds this last Sunday (that the media in the US is not showing because they are so in the tank for Obama and do not want to "embarass him," ) are pretty revealing.



Sadly, to our shame...it is true.

Never notice that things are so serious!
 

RahultheWaffle

Just Hatched
Registered Member
It was from the beginning.

The Obama administration's foreign policy in Africa has been an abysmal failure, and has made that part of the world a much more dangerous place. He has gotten behind every wrong horse possible.

Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc. to name the largest screw-ups, and now it is coming home to roost on him. Some of the signs by the big crowds this last Sunday (that the media in the US is not showing because they are so in the tank for Obama and do not want to "embarass him," ) are pretty revealing.

Sadly, to our shame...it is true.

I think the pics are revealing, but at the same time we should be a bit more circumspect when considering just what impression that people have of Obama. Nevertheless I agree that Obama's Africa FP has been a complete failure.
 

delft

Brigadier
The view of Kaveh L Afrasiabi on the prospects for Egypt, published in Asia Times on line. Afrasiabi is an Iranian living in the US.
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After Morsi, the geopolitical fallout

[Mohamed Morsi was ousted as president of Egypt by a military coup late on July 3 local time and was reported to be detained at an undisclosed location after the army suspended the constitution. Egypt's top military commander, General Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi, said Morsi had been replaced by the chief justice of the constitutional court, Adli Mansour, and a government of technocrats would be formed with "full powers" to run the country. He did not specify how long the transition period would last or when new elections might be held. Asia Times Online published the following article by Kaveh L Afrasiabi just before the coup.]



The Egyptian military's decision to issue an ultimatum to Mohamed Morsi has been decried by supporters of the embattled president as an illegal coup attempt to dethrone a democratically elected leader. After several cabinet ministers quit in an expression of solidarity with demonstrators in Tahrir Square who are seeking an end to his rule, agreement to substantial "power-sharing" looks like Morsi's only route to avoid a collision with the military and his inevitable ouster.
A military takeover in Egypt would force the Arab world's biggest nation into a new and uncertain phase of political crisis with clear geopolitical ramifications. The list of questions awaiting answers is long, and includes concerns about the duration of the military government and how quickly a transition to another civilian government could take place through an election, how Morsi's supporters will respond, and the likely level of violence following the coup. Finally, what foreign policy adjustments will the Egyptian military make after toppling Morsi?

It is instructive to review Morsi's foreign policy during the (short-lived) experiment of the Muslim Brotherhood's setting of the foreign policy agenda in Egypt. From the outset, Morsi sought to adopt an "independent" line and made it known to Western powers that the past era of sheepish obedience to their interests was over. Egypt was to act according to its own interests.

It was the pursuit of this new orientation that brought Morsi to Tehran last August to participate in the Non-Aligned Summit, an occasion which he used to express solidarity with the Syrian people fighting against the Assad regime, and to propose a "Syria quartet", including Iran, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis never showed interest in this proposal and boycotted the quartet's meeting in Cairo last year. Nor did the Saudis or the Qataris, two principal financial backers of Cairo, ever welcome Morsi's initial toying with the idea of a diplomatic rapprochement with the Islamic Republic.

Consequently, caught between conflicting priorities, Morsi scrapped a deal for direct flights between Tehran and Cairo, or the facilitation of visa requirements for Iranian tourists, and slowly backed away from the quartet in favor of a Saudi-favored hardline vis-a-vis Syria, which was reflected in his decision last month to close the Syrian embassy in Cairo, coinciding with a generous Saudi loan to Egypt.

With respect to Israel and future of Arab-Israel relations, despite a pledge to uphold the Camp David accords and closing the border tunnels dug by Palestinians holed up in Gaza, Morsi was never able to secure an American-Israeli confidence about his intentions. He was always regarded with suspicion that his intention was to consolidate his own power before turning against the accords, which the Muslim Brotherhood had denounced in the past as a sell-out. Without doubt, Morsi's downfall will be viewed as a foreign policy plus by both Washington and Tel Aviv, whose leaders dreaded Morsi's positive signals to Iran and his "cloak and dagger" approach to foreign policy.

Thus, in retrospect, and assuming that Morsi's fate has been sealed by the end of the week as all the signs indicate, his year-long presidency will likely be regarded by future historians as a short-lived attempt at foreign policy reorientation aimed at elevating Egypt's role as an independent regional actor - one that was caught in the dilemma of conflicting loyalties, such as the fact that getting closer to the Shi'ite Iranians made sense on the geopolitical level but not on the Shi'ite-Sunni fault line.

In turn, this led to incoherent policies that ultimately satisfied no one and was aggravated by Morsi's lack of diplomatic skills and inability to bargain hard for leverages.

Henceforth, a post-Morsi Egypt will likely embed itself more firmly in the Saudi-led conservative camp, take a more assertive role vis-a-vis the crisis in Syria, provide greater assurance to Israel and put to rest the US and Israeli concerns about any regional realignment, in other words, a "thermidorian" restoration of status quo foreign policy approach favored by the unreconstructed Egyptian armed forces.

For sure, such a development in Egypt is antithetical to the interests of Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah in Lebanon, not to mention Hamas in the Palestinian occupied territories, and will free the hands of Israelis even further with respect to their current policy of settlement expansion, their disregard for a Middle East peace process, and the strangulation of Gaza. Indeed, looking at Israelis discourse on the "greater Middle East" it becomes clear that an independent and self-assertive Egypt was and has never ben part of their equation. Naturally, they and their American patrons prefer a docile and non-problematic Egypt that simply toes the line, just as it did for decades before the tumults of Arab Spring in 2011. But now, with the 'falling out' of Egypt from the domain of American hegemony having turned into an arrested development, the big question is how will a coup regime in Egypt tackle the powerful sentiments that brought Morsi to power exactly one year ago in the first place?

Without doubt, removing a democratically elected government by force will stigmatize the coup-makers and their Western supporters (in light of the discrete American green light). The chances are that instead of restoring stability this will throw Egypt in the bosom of greater chaos and repression, reflecting a surge in ethnic and sectarian violence.

The fact that the opposition was able to muster a huge rally in Cairo's streets does not suffice for regime change, just as the mass protests in Taksim Square in Istanbul have not been interpreted by anyone, the Turkish army or western powers, as sufficient evidence that the country's prime minister must go. Egypt, after all, has a constitutionally elected president; his overthrow by the army citing the power of "people" in the street would make a mockery of these democratic standards.

Kaveh L Afrasiabi, PhD, is the author of After Khomeini: New Directions in Iran's Foreign Policy (Westview Press). For further biographical details, click here. Afrasiabi is author of Reading In Iran Foreign Policy After September 11 (BookSurge Publishing , October 23, 2008) and Looking for Rights at Harvard. His latest book is UN Management Reform: Selected Articles and Interviews on UN issues (CreateSpace 2011).

(Copyright 2013 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
This coup might encourage some to increase support for the subversives in Syria, but it will also make the friends ( not Friends ) of Syria increase support for President Assad.
 

Jeff Head

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w460.jpg


Al Jezeera said:
July 4, 2013
Al Jezeera

Chief justice Adly Mansour takes oath hours after democratically elected Mohamed Morsi overthrown by military.

Top judge Mansour has been sworn in as Egypt interim president, hours after Mohamed Morsi was overthrown in a military coup following huge protests against his one-year rule.

Adly Mansour took the oath of interim president on Thursday, as his democratically elected predecessor, Mohamed Morsi, was held in an unspecified military barracks along with senior aides.

Before the constitutional court, Mansour said: "I swear by God to uphold the Republican system and respect the constitution and law... and safeguard the people and protect the nation."

"The revolutionaries of Egypt are everywhere and we salute them all, those who prove to the world that they are strong enough, the brave youth of Egypt, who were the leaders of this revolution."

Separately, Mansour was made head of the supreme constitutional court - a position he was due to take on June 30, when protests against Morsi's one year in power began in earnest.

Morsi was overthrown by the military on Wednesday. According to a senior member of the Muslim Brotherhood, Morsi was being held in a military facility with top aides.

"Morsi and the entire presidential team are under house arrest in the Presidential Republican Guards Club," Gehad El-Haddad, the son of a top Morsi aide, told AFP news agency on Thursday. Haddad's father, Essam El-Haddad, widely seen as Morsi's

Less than an hour after Mansour was sworn in, Egyptian prosecutors issued arrest warrants for the Brotherhood's top leader, Mohamed Badie, and his deputy, Khairat el-Shater, judicial and army sources told Reuters news agency.

Shater was the group's first choice candidate to run in last year's presidential election. He was disqualified from the race due to past convictions. Hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood officials were also reported to have been arrested, with many senior leaders being held in the Torah prison in Cairo - the same prison holding Hosni Mubarak, who was himself deposed in the 2011 revolution.


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Egyptians Celebrate the overthrow of Morsi in Tahir Square

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Nasdaq said:
July 4, 2013
NASDAQ

BRUSSELS--The European Union signaled late Wednesday it recognized the new authorities in Egypt following the military's ousting of Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, with the bloc's foreign policy chief calling for presidential and parliamentary elections to be called soon.

In a statement, Catherine Ashton urged "all sides to rapidly return to the democratic process, including the holding of free and fair presidential and parliamentary elections and the approval of a constitution."
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
So pretty much 2 years down the line, the whole Arab Spring is just one failure after another.
Maybe not really.

I believe two years ago the people of Egypt did want liberty, and they did want stability...but I also believe that the MB hijacked that, got a constitution written that was extremely fundamental, and then began doing things to undermine the treaty with Israel, oppress minorities, etc. and the people of Egypt have now reacted to that to get things back on track...and the Egyptian military, which has always held enough power to tilt the scale, intervened on their behalf after they saw their numbers from last weekend.

So...at least for Egypt, you might say that there was a detour and that perhaps, hopefully, things are back on track. At least that is what I am hearing through friends over there and people in the military.

I do not think what is happening in Syria is remotely comparable. I believe the Obama administration backed the MB, and that the MB in Libya, and in Syria, has been pushing more Islamic fundamentalism and radicalism under the color of the "Arab Spring." Sadly, they have been assisted by Obama...and now, understandably, justifiably...and yes, thankfully, Obama has egg all over his face.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Maybe not really.

I believe two years ago the people of Egypt did want liberty, and they did want stability...but I also believe that the MB hijacked that, got a constitution written that was extremely fundamental, and then began doing things to undermine the treaty with Israel, oppress minorities, etc. and the people of Egypt have now reacted to that to get things back on track...and the Egyptian military, which has always held enough power to tilt the scale, intervened on their behalf after they saw their numbers from last weekend.

So...at least for Egypt, you might say that there was a detour and that perhaps, hopefully, things are back on track. At least that is what I am hearing through friends over there and people in the military.

I do not think what is happening in Syria is remotely comparable. I believe the Obama administration backed the MB, and that the MB in Libya, and in Syria, has been pushing more Islamic fundamentalism and radicalism under the color of the "Arab Spring." Sadly, they have been assisted by Obama...and now, understandably, justifiably...and yes, thankfully, Obama has egg all over his face.

You say the MB 'hijacked' the Arab spring, but how did they do that? What laws did they break? Like it or not, the MB came into power through free and fair elections, and everything they did since, they did fair and square. If there was any hijacking done, it was this coup.

The fact is the MB did not dance to America's tune like the Eyption Generals do, and America does have a long and well established history of toppling democratically elected governments that do not serve its interests.

The silence from America over this coup is deafening. Can anyone here honestly say they think there would be such muted acceptance or even support if the generals had toppled a pro-US government?

As for Egypt descending into armed conflict, well, I dare say it would be child's play to make that happen if any major power wanted to. There is real anger and resentment on the streets. Already there are running battles on the streets with fatalities. Ship in weapons as the Gulf states did with Syria and you don't even need to use agents or NGOs to whip up the mob into a killing mood since they are already there, and there would blood on the streets which can be easily escalated into a civil war in no time.

Making war is easy, its keeping the peace that is hard.
 
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SampanViking

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To say Hijack is a little misleading. More correctly the MB were simply the bigger and better organised "other" political" body after the fall of Mubarak and in best place to Capitalise on trying to fill the power vacuum.

Far deeper than this though, I sense that the narrative in the region is being sharply changed from that which we have been encouraged to believe. We have been told that the defining schism in the region is strictly sectarian, with the pitting of Sunni and Shia against each other.

The story of 2013 though has been the fight back of secularism. This is true in Egypt, it is true in Turkey and it is also true in Syria, where the unspoken truth (obtained by NATO in a report they commissioned via the various aid agencies in the country) is that the Assad Government enjoys the support of 70% of the Syrian people, including large parts of the Sunni population. Support for the Jihadi Mercenaries only runs at about 10%.
Calls in Egypt from MB aligned clerics for Sunni Jihad against Syria also appear to have been a red line for many protesters.

There is also in the Morsi story the less edifying contest between the Petro Monarchies Saudi Arabia and Qatar (Rival pipeline proposals from the Gulf to the Med via Syria). Saudi loathed the MB while Qatar lauded. In that sense Qatar has suffered a strategic defeat and West has once again rallied to key ally King Abdullah.

With the Army, and external fundamentalist Petro Monarchies calling many of the shots in this affair, real Secularists and Democrats on the ground in Egypt are still trailing a very poor third.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
You say the MB 'hijacked' the Arab spring, but how did they do that? What laws did they break? Like it or not, the MB came into power through free and fair elections, and everything they did since, they did fair and square.

The silence from America over this coup is deafening. Can anyone here honestly say they think there would be such muted acceptance or even support if the generals had toppled a pro-US government?

There is real anger and resentment on the streets. Already there are running battles on the streets with fatalities.

Making war is easy, its keeping the peace that is hard.
It's not what they did before or during the election, wolf, it is what they have done since.

He was supporting Al Quida rebels in Syria, he was walking away from peace with Israel, and his administration (the MB) was persecuting and allowing the out and out murder of minorities in his own country.

As to the verification of this, talk to the tens of millions who rose up and protested against it.

The Egyptian military acted based on the public reaction to Morsi and where he was taking them.

As top running battles...these were happening much worse before the overthrow...much worse. 15-20 people at a time for days were being killed all over the country. Of course there is a backlash from the MB...but not fromt he general people on the street. They reacted with joy.

So...it was those people who ultimately decided this.

I believe it will hold. I believe a new, better constitution will be written and that a much more secular and fair representative government will ensue.

But time will tell.
 
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