American UFO disclosures

Mohsin77 said:

Really? Okay, prove it.

Show me your "known physics" which you seem to be so confident of knowing:

A) How light would this 40 foot object need to be?
B) How much thrust would it need to achieve this?
C) What's the max G-Force load it would experience?
D) How strong would this material need to be to absorb C
E) Now add the heat requirement for hypersonic velocities (which was also observed.)
F) What's the lightest material that can satisfy D and E?

Once you have a preliminary number for F, then plug it back into A, and we'll see your final result for B, C, D & E.

Good luck.



There are 3 problems with this:

1) The first possibility Fravor considered was that it was a helicopter (which is equivalent to your hypothesis because it would still require vertical thrust to maintain altitude). He ruled it out because there was no rotor wash on the surface of the water (this effect would exist for any type of conventional thrust generated at that altitude.)

2) Fravor and his flight are subject matter experts. They're fighter pilots. Fravor is also a graduate of Top Gun. So if he's claiming that visibility + contrast + range to bogey was not an issue for his observation, he's probably right.

3) You also need the radar equipment to be malfunctioning during this 'tic tac' episode. Plus, you need the recent footage taken by the destroyer to be faked, in order to explain all of this.

Now, given all of the above, you should have said that this whole thing is just a hoax, and everyone involved is simply lying and providing doctored evidence. That's at least a much simpler explanation. However, personally, at this point, I'm leaning towards the other possibility, that these things actually do exist, and they are not human technology. And again, I'm only saying this after listening to Fravor's account. I personally could not detect any BS in his testimony. And if this is an organized lie by the Pentagon, Fravor would necessarily need to be lying.

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I'm ignoring your math proposal because we haven't seen the footage, and we don't know how instantaneous the motion was, based only on Fravor's description. You seem to be convinced that jerky motion is beyond physics somehow and that stronger and lighter materials and more powerful thrusters than what we currently publicly know of can't exist.

1) During the incident there was increased sea roughness directly under the craft, Fravor proposes it was due to a object directly under the water. If there really was an object directly under the water surface, that could be a source of non-motion based levitation, such as a magnetic effect of some sort.

2) Airplane pilots are trained to observe planes, with defined features, shapes, and colors. A smooth white ovoid with no markings could certainly interfere with his internal sense of scale

3 ) How do you know the destroyer recorded the same craft as what Fravor saw? Why are you so confident in this point you can completely dismiss the possibility different crafts were being observed?

Also, by Fravor's own account, the radar was being jammed during the tictac episode and he could only observe through the visual tsrgeting pod.

silentlurker said:

....could be a source of non-motion based levitation, such as a magnetic effect of some sort.

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Really? Okay, here you go:



That's the equation for magnetic fields. Do you understand the relevance of "2piR" in the denominator for your hypothesis? Try and calculate the strength of the magnetic field that would be needed to levitate any object 50 feet above the water. I'll make it even more fun for you: Assume that this 40 foot object only weighed 1kg for your calculation. (That's just to give you some hope, even though none exists for you, because you aren't understanding the actual problem.)

Good luck.

p.s. do you even realize what mankind could accomplish with magnets if they could do what you think they're capable of?

silentlurker said:

3 ) How do you know the destroyer recorded the same craft as what Fravor saw?

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When did I say it was the same object? It clearly wasn't. No one ever said that it was.

silentlurker said:

Also, by Fravor's own account, the radar was being jammed during the tictac episode and he could only observe through the visual tsrgeting pod.

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The AEGIS AESA radar dude, not the F-18's radar. That's what vectored Fravor's flight to its exact location.

silentlurker said:

I'm ignoring your math proposal because we haven't seen the footage, and we don't know how instantaneous the motion was, based only on Fravor's description. You seem to be convinced that jerky motion is beyond physics somehow and that stronger and lighter materials and more powerful thrusters than what we currently publicly know of can't exist.
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2) Airplane pilots are trained to observe planes, with defined features, shapes, and colors. A smooth white ovoid with no markings could certainly interfere with his internal sense of scale

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You keep going in circles. Your entire argument is based on disputing a subject matter expert's testimony. Now it's just a "he said/she said" thing, and you'll lose that every time, because there were 8 sets of eyes including Fravor which saw this thing, and all of them were experts. So trying to poke holes in the narrative by claiming they were all mistaken (even when Fravor explicitly said they met all the criteria for an accurate tally) is just a bad tactic.

Again... why don't you just say that he was lying?? Just say that it's a hoax. Why are you trying so hard to lose this argument???? lolz

Mohsin77 said:

Really? Okay, here you go:

That's the equation for magnetic fields. Do you understand the relevance of "2piR" in the denominator for your hypothesis? Try and calculate the strength of the magnetic field that would be needed to levitate any object 50 feet above the water. I'll make it even more fun for you: Assume that this 40 foot object only weighed 1kg for your calculation. (That's just to give you some hope, even though none exists for you, because you aren't understanding the actual problem.)

Good luck.

p.s. do you even realize what mankind could accomplish with magnets if they could do what you think they're capable of?


When did I say it was the same object? It clearly wasn't. No one ever said that it was.


The AEGIS AESA radar dude, not the F-18's radar. That's what vectored Fravor's flight to its exact location.



You keep going in circles. Your entire argument is based on disputing a subject matter expert's testimony. Now it's just a "he said/she said" thing, and you'll lose that every time, because there were 8 sets of eyes including Fravor which saw this thing, and all of them were experts. So trying to poke holes in the narrative by claiming they were all mistaken (even when Fravor explicitly said they met all the criteria for an accurate tally) is just a bad tactic.

Again... why don't you just say that he was lying?? Just say that it's a hoax. Why are you trying so hard to lose this argument???? lolz

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His core argument that it could be a totally earthly/natural/human thing (not outright saying they could be lying) is not disprovable because it is lacking in detail and it's lacking in detail because the claims are lacking in detail.

We cannot say that this stuff is beyond our understanding of physics when "this stuff" and its performance is not specced. It is said that it can hover - okay that's definitely weird particularly if it isn't a helicopter or an aircraft with thrust vectoring. We don't know how it speeds off. A rocket propelled ejection seat speeds off pretty fast as well. If we're not given any kinematic details, we cannot say whether it is beyond our capabilities or not. Of course it certainly is presented to us in that way.

I'd be very keen to see a video of a craft hover in mid air without any use of known propulsion, and then zoom off in a blink or simply seemingly pop out of existence. Those video/s have NOT been presented to us. Instead we have a government that doesn't have the greatest track record of being fully honest and candid, telling us there might be something to this whole UFO/aliens discussion that's been going on all over the planet for a long, long time.

That question on radius isn't addressed to me and I'm no physicist or familiar with electromagnetism but I'm guessing the significance of R in that equation for magnetic field is that since mag field is inversely proportional then basically you'll need a very small distance to have a presumably large enough B to do mechanical work on any mass.

Fancy magnets isn't the answer (probably) but again his argument isn't disprovable. We've yet to see and hear about what these alleged crafts can do. So far it's just "wow" "holy shit that's amazing" "incredible speed" "no wayyyyyy! ohemgeeeee!" but no details on roughly how it accelerates to say whether or not something like that is within the realm of known capabilities i.e. some well funded project could deliver something that does/achieves at least that.

ougoah said:

Exactly. Luis is a former (possibly current) intelligence officer with unknown clearance. This recent stuff from the US government are done for unknown reasons but one of them is surely to control and shape narratives in a field they previously had little control over.

Maybe Luis is a hero for forcing this stuff out of the government. It's just very strange why they will acknowledge existence of UFOs and implication being non-human intelligent life, but they won't talk about anything other than those select alleged interactions with UFOs. Because we know if the first part is true at least in part, visitations and interactions in the past suddenly have quite a big credibility boost (the better ones) and the US government was at least involved in those cases which involved the US. So why won't they even acknowledge a single one of those cases?

All of this is the beginning of an operation to control the narrative from this point on. Maybe with the eventual goal of disclosing more truths/ actual truths but laying the ground works for something is what's happening with these efforts. The something may not even be ET/UFO related.

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come on, hes a former intelligence officer and people are still giving him the benefit of the doubt. what do people think these intel officers do, considering the long history of American psychological operations? its absurd to think he isn't lying.

Mohsin77 said:

You keep going in circles. Your entire argument is based on disputing a subject matter expert's testimony.

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Just as yours is about supporting his testimony. Which is why we'll need more than that and some grainy footage doesn't convince me.

Various aspects of Fravor's account are contradicted by multiple servicemen on the carrier.

If Americans are keen to promote an alien conspiracy, we'll need more proof I'm afraid.

HybridHypothesis said:

come on, hes a former intelligence officer and people are still giving him the benefit of the doubt. what do people think these intel officers do, considering the long history of American psychological operations? its absurd to think he isn't lying.

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We are talking about the US they convinced the western world that the Israel settlers project is peaceful, that Saddam had WMD and that 9 million Uighurs have been genocided. The US owns the western information streams they decide what is the narrative.

Abominable said:

Various aspects of Fravor's account are contradicted by multiple servicemen on the carrier.

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Great. That's why I keep suggesting to silentlurker that he should just claim that Fravor is lying and this whole thing is a hoax, instead of trying to suggest technical alternatives etc.

But do you have the rebuttals to Fravor by other servicemen on the carrier group? The last I heard he wasn't being "contradicted" by anyone else who was there. If he is being contradicted by the other fighter pilots who saw this thing, then of course his testimony is easily debunked and he is proven to be lying.

Mohsin77 said:

Great. That's why I keep suggesting to silentlurker that he should just claim that Fravor is lying and this whole thing is a hoax, instead of trying to suggest technical alternatives etc.

But do you have the rebuttals to Fravor by other servicemen on the carrier group? The last I heard he wasn't being "contradicted" by anyone else who was there. If he is being contradicted by the other fighter pilots who saw this thing, then of course his testimony is easily debunked and he is proven to be lying.

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Things don't have to be black and white. Maybe he isn't lying outright, but isn't privy to all the details? One plausible explanation was that the entire episode was a test of a holographic decoy system. Hard to say, but no less plausible than space aliens.

Look up the Nimitz encounters on youtube. The filmmaker interviews a number of servicemen who directly contradict Fravor's recollection of events during and after the encounter.

dude don't tell me to do your work. You made the claim. So find the videos yourself and post them here.

Mohsin77 said:

When did I say it was the same object? It clearly wasn't. No one ever said that it was.

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Mohsin77 said:

No pulse jet can explain the motion that he is describing. It's technically impossible. Also, the recently released video of the UFO buzzing a US destroyer was captured from the underside. There was no pulse jet.

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Isn't this you disproving pulse jets on the Fravor account based on the destroyer footage? What do you mean here?

Mohsin77 said:

Your entire argument is based on disputing a subject matter expert's testimony.

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My entire argument is from Fravor's purely qualitative analysis, we can't tell if this object is an alien from outer space. All of his testimony is based on what he saw, not on measurements.

Mohsin77 said:

That's the equation for magnetic fields. Do you understand the relevance of "2piR" in the denominator for your hypothesis? Try and calculate the strength of the magnetic field that would be needed to levitate any object 50 feet above the water. I'll make it even more fun for you: Assume that this 40 foot object only weighed 1kg for your calculation. (That's just to give you some hope, even though none exists for you, because you aren't understanding the actual problem.)

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Well actually given its a surface under the object and not a line thats probably not the right formula, but yes a brute-force application of magnetism wouldn't be feasible. I'm just pointing out that having an object under it means there might be some way of providing lift.

Also, he says "usually when they(helicopters) get down there towards that 50ft you'll get rotor wash", not that the object he spotted was at 50ft which he wouldn't have been able to tell from 20000ft.