What I meant to say is that these guys may not be directly responsible. While this may indicate a response to actual systemic failure, it's also not uncommon for officials to become fall guys in order too prevent public anger over situations with no direct culpability. It's just a bit difficult to know why without knowing the exact causes of the accident, but firing three officials for a supposed freak accident is drastic.
All is not what it seems within China's High Speed Rail development.
- Thread starter bladerunner
- Start date
What I meant to say is that these guys may not be directly responsible. While this may indicate a response to actual systemic failure, it's also not uncommon for officials to become fall guys in order too prevent public anger over situations with no direct culpability. It's just a bit difficult to know why without knowing the exact causes of the accident, but firing three officials for a supposed freak accident is drastic.
Quickie
Colonel
In a way, it also serves as a warning to the rest of the head officials. You can be fired right away for causing a disaster if there're found evidence of the slightest miss-steps. There can be no excuse of employees sleeping on the job, communication backup did not work or other such excuses as all these are seen as preventable, overcomable and solvable, and you're deemed not able to foresee and solve such problem by taking the necessary measures. In other words, you're deemed not good enough for the job.
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LoL, I swear China has much more stringent culpability standards.
may be, speculating here.
1) the 3 heads of Shanghai Railway bureau are hold over from Mr Liu.
2) the 3 heads of Shanghai railway bureaus are friends of current minister of railways, which the liu's patrons upthere wants revenge for Liu;s sacking.
or
2) responsibility system. where the top guy is responsible for screw ups under his jurisdiction.
Quickie
Colonel
This has many real life examples where the top guy resigns from the job just on the basis of responsibility. No questions asked.
It's hard to say in China. Everything is so politicized.
Red___Sword
Junior Member
i.e., latenlzy, while the good mod warned us not go "which one is better" kind of bashing, I suggest we stops "political fortunetelling" too. (What if I start to say that you never know, everything in west including social justification system (law) is, commercialized? - outright bashing, right?)
A general idea which the SDF members haven't mention is: The dispatch got something really wrong, with somewhat solid proof:
The two train, The D301 which now at the back, was supposed to dispatched before the one D3115, yet it was D301's "head" collided with the "end" of D3115, at the same line. - You can image how wrong the dispatch has done even with us normal unprofessional view.
One possible conclusion I get from Chinese BBS is that, the D301 missed the supposed dispatch window, and even more f*cked up is that the over all dispatch system ALLOWS certain amount of "catch the schedual" effort, as long as it is "OK". Well it was not OK this time, the D301 speeds up trying to catch the supposed schedual while D3115 lost power, and they were at the same line without anyhope to sefely seperate the line when D301 also lost power.
Proofs:
1. The supposed dispatch schedual is published, ordinary people find out the inconsistent.
2. Video by bystanders at that time, who footaging the nearby road traffic condition (rainstorm hit the place and the town road was muddy - accidently captured the train collision - shows both train during the time, was power off, the moving D301 hit the almost staioned D3115.
Well, it's not offical, but with reasons.
Edit:
I would like to point out that people's unrest not comes from finger pointing "who exactly is responseble" about the mis-dispatch; but comes from the reality that systematically speaking, it is allowed (day to day existing) that trains "catch up their supposed schedual" while other trains operating at the same line. It was just too bad this time, the D301 and D3115 both didn't being properly guided for each other's coming - THAT reality, pisses.
If it's not this time, it simply would happened somewhere, sometime... That's what Chinese ordinary people critics about the so call 铁老大 "railway big brother" - what a heck chaotic administration system you are running!
A general idea which the SDF members haven't mention is: The dispatch got something really wrong, with somewhat solid proof:
The two train, The D301 which now at the back, was supposed to dispatched before the one D3115, yet it was D301's "head" collided with the "end" of D3115, at the same line. - You can image how wrong the dispatch has done even with us normal unprofessional view.
One possible conclusion I get from Chinese BBS is that, the D301 missed the supposed dispatch window, and even more f*cked up is that the over all dispatch system ALLOWS certain amount of "catch the schedual" effort, as long as it is "OK". Well it was not OK this time, the D301 speeds up trying to catch the supposed schedual while D3115 lost power, and they were at the same line without anyhope to sefely seperate the line when D301 also lost power.
Proofs:
1. The supposed dispatch schedual is published, ordinary people find out the inconsistent.
2. Video by bystanders at that time, who footaging the nearby road traffic condition (rainstorm hit the place and the town road was muddy - accidently captured the train collision - shows both train during the time, was power off, the moving D301 hit the almost staioned D3115.
Well, it's not offical, but with reasons.
Edit:
I would like to point out that people's unrest not comes from finger pointing "who exactly is responseble" about the mis-dispatch; but comes from the reality that systematically speaking, it is allowed (day to day existing) that trains "catch up their supposed schedual" while other trains operating at the same line. It was just too bad this time, the D301 and D3115 both didn't being properly guided for each other's coming - THAT reality, pisses.
If it's not this time, it simply would happened somewhere, sometime... That's what Chinese ordinary people critics about the so call 铁老大 "railway big brother" - what a heck chaotic administration system you are running!
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I would lean towards the view that the three sacked officials were part of former Minister Liu's coterie.
Culpability in this kind of situation tends to be systemic and such systems are years in the making. It makes no sense to blame people who have only been in office for a few months, you want those that have presided over the formation of any system(s) which failed.
I would expect a fairly rapid trickle down of change now, as this crash gives the new senior managers all the excuse they need to purge the dept of the remaining hangovers from Liu's cliche.
Culpability in this kind of situation tends to be systemic and such systems are years in the making. It makes no sense to blame people who have only been in office for a few months, you want those that have presided over the formation of any system(s) which failed.
I would expect a fairly rapid trickle down of change now, as this crash gives the new senior managers all the excuse they need to purge the dept of the remaining hangovers from Liu's cliche.
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
One forum speaks of a oncoming train that also got caught up in the lightning strike. It managed to cruise to a stop.
Meanwhile heres a comment I got from the comments section written by luhai167 in the Time Magazine which supports Red Swords version of events
"Here is a video claimed to be filmed at the moment of the crash.
... You can see the clear arcing as D301 goes off the track.
If it's true, it would confirm the initial Xinhua report that D3115 was in fact moving at the time of the crash. Thus you can construct probable sequence of events;
1. According passenger accounts D3115 was struck by lighting, and stranded on the track for ~10 minutes. This probably cause delay on the entire line, with a already delayed D301 right behind it.
2. According the initial Xinhua report, D3115 was moving at time of the crash. So PERHAPS (it's all speculation here,but all over Chinese forum if you can read Chinese), the control center give a green light to D301 AS SOON AS D3115 starts moving IGNORING the 8km blocking rule from standard procedure, in a effort to clear delays and get the line moving. However, PERHAPS due to damages or malfunction D3115 did not reach to speed and D301 is gaining on it rapidly. With automatic breaking triggering malfunctioning due to lighting (according to recent Ministry of Rail press conference), D301 could only apply manual breaking when the conductor saw D3115 in front of him. But it's too late, and D301 struck D3115 in the back.
If this scenario is true, then Ministry of Rail clearly put speed and revenue before safety. This probably explain why the officials are sacked, however the challenge for them is how to manage this information with putting the Rail Ministry and in turn the Chinese government in a extremely bad light, which while still maintaining a bit of credibility. Cause right now, no one is buying the "blaming the weather" story."
Meanwhile heres a comment I got from the comments section written by luhai167 in the Time Magazine which supports Red Swords version of events
"Here is a video claimed to be filmed at the moment of the crash.
... You can see the clear arcing as D301 goes off the track.
If it's true, it would confirm the initial Xinhua report that D3115 was in fact moving at the time of the crash. Thus you can construct probable sequence of events;
1. According passenger accounts D3115 was struck by lighting, and stranded on the track for ~10 minutes. This probably cause delay on the entire line, with a already delayed D301 right behind it.
2. According the initial Xinhua report, D3115 was moving at time of the crash. So PERHAPS (it's all speculation here,but all over Chinese forum if you can read Chinese), the control center give a green light to D301 AS SOON AS D3115 starts moving IGNORING the 8km blocking rule from standard procedure, in a effort to clear delays and get the line moving. However, PERHAPS due to damages or malfunction D3115 did not reach to speed and D301 is gaining on it rapidly. With automatic breaking triggering malfunctioning due to lighting (according to recent Ministry of Rail press conference), D301 could only apply manual breaking when the conductor saw D3115 in front of him. But it's too late, and D301 struck D3115 in the back.
If this scenario is true, then Ministry of Rail clearly put speed and revenue before safety. This probably explain why the officials are sacked, however the challenge for them is how to manage this information with putting the Rail Ministry and in turn the Chinese government in a extremely bad light, which while still maintaining a bit of credibility. Cause right now, no one is buying the "blaming the weather" story."
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I wasn't doing any political fortune telling. I was merely pointing out the possibility that they may not have been sacked for direct responsibility of the accident. Don't take my comment about everything in China being politicized too seriously.