Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Jeff Head

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The ships are well on there way under construction or are in comission. And my dream could be a reality.
Exactly Popeye. The Hyuga class are being built with one already in the water and commissioned. Same with the Dokdo. Add to that the INiidan carrier and the UK carrier, both of which have had steel cut.

These are actual, under construction projects that will produce more and more carriers.

Add to that the new Spanish and Italian carriers and you have quite the makings for a lot of cross decking opportunities between allies.

The F-35 is going to be a huge hit all around, but I expect the VSTOL F-35B will be used by quite a few navies around the world for this mission, turning these "Jeep" carriers into more potent tools.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Thanks Jeff! I forgot all about the Indians and ROK navy. I think the ROK Navy is planning 3 or 4 Dokdo class ships...Yes that's quite a force. But I can't imagine the ROKN and JMSDF operating together. That maybe a stretch..

But there's only one navy on Earth that can do this...

svnw2h.jpg

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PACIFIC OCEAN (Aug.14, 2007) - USS Nimitz (CVN 68), USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) and USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) Carrier Strike Groups transit in formation during a joint photo exercise (PHOTOEX) during exercise Valiant Shield 2007. The aerial formation consists of aircraft from the carrier strike groups as well as Air Force aircraft. The strike groups are participating in Valiant Shield 2007, the largest joint exercise in the Pacific this year. Held in the Guam operating area, the exercise includes 30 ships, more than 280 aircraft and more than 20,000 service members from the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Hana'lei Shimana (RELEASED)
 

Scratch

Captain
... or have they actually marked out a 'Harrier' style runway on deck ...

... I believe utlimately they will have that capability.

I do have a question here. Looking quickly at some vids of harriers taking of from USN LHAs / LHDs, it looks to me like those aircraft do not lift off as long as they are above the runway, but just drive off it at the front end and then just start to fly.
Now the usable runway on the Hyunga seems to be even shorter, and the front end of the deck is mostly angled. I'm wondering if that does bear the danger of the aircraft rolling to one side when one wheel is already clear of the deck while the other is not and there's still weight on the wheels.
To go off over a perpendicular edge, the fighters would have to accelerate really close to the island.
Off course one can just rely more on the downward blast to lift off, but I'm wondering how much usefull fuel and payload a -35B could then still use and if those limited capabilities are worth the investment into a really not so cheap aircraft.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Scratch, Obi Wan is the expert in the area you have a question about. Perhaps he can answer your query..

The flight deck on the [SIZE=-1]
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[/SIZE] is only 35 feet(10.6 meters) shorter than an [SIZE=-1]
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Class. [/SIZE]I'm sure that if this ship was fitted with a ski ramp the Sea Harrier or an F-35B could lift off from this ship.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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I do have a question here. Looking quickly at some vids of harriers taking of from USN LHAs / LHDs, it looks to me like those aircraft do not lift off as long as they are above the runway, but just drive off it at the front end and then just start to fly.
Now the usable runway on the Hyunga seems to be even shorter, and the front end of the deck is mostly angled. I'm wondering if that does bear the danger of the aircraft rolling to one side when one wheel is already clear of the deck while the other is not and there's still weight on the wheels.
To go off over a perpendicular edge, the fighters would have to accelerate really close to the island.
Off course one can just rely more on the downward blast to lift off, but I'm wondering how much usefull fuel and payload a -35B could then still use and if those limited capabilities are worth the investment into a really not so cheap aircraft.

USMC Harriers do not have the assistance of ski jumps for launching, so they have to make use of as much deck as possible in order to reach flyiing speed. They do indeed 'drive off the front of the deck'. Normally when taking off this way the nozzles are pointed aft until the end of the deck is reached, then the nozzles are rotated down to about 45 degrees (by way of a preset 'stop' on the nozzle lever, so the pilot doesn't have to look down when moving it) in order to provide enough jetborne lift to compensate for any lack of wingborne lift once the deck becomes a 'distant memory'. When carrying a large bomb load practically the whole length of the deck is required and even then the Harriers will still 'sink' after leaving the deck, reminiscent of WW2 aircraft carrying out free takeoffs heavily laden.

With a ski jump launch, things get a lot easier. The 'runway', or the distance between the start of the takeoff run and becoming fully wingborne (about 130 knots for a Harrier) is in the previously mentioned instance of a 'flat' launch from an LHA/LHD in the region of about 900 ft, which given they only have about 800 ft to play with explains why they have to use the nozzles for extra lift at the end of the roll. Now put a 'ski jump' ramp in that takeoff roll about half way down (say 400 ft) and the aircraft will have reached about 80 knots as it leaved the end of the ramp. This is not enough to fly on it's wings alone, but the wings are still generating some lift and the nozzles are providing the rest plus further thrust to continue accelerating. The aircraft on leaving the ramp is in an arc that would otherwise see it rise before falling back down, just like a motorbike stunt rider jumping over Busses, trucks elephants, whatever looks impressive this week. The difference is that an aircraft as it is on the upwards leg of the jump is still subject to further acceleration from it's engine (which the motorbike isn't, not having it's wheels in contact with anything) and by the time it has reached the highest point of the arc it will be at flying speed (the aforementioned 130 knots) as well as about 200 ft altitude, at which point it flys away normally like any other aircraft. Compared to the 'flat deck' takeoff the USMC has to use, the ski jump method means if there is a problem during takeoff such as engine failure, the pilot has several more seconds to decide if he needs to join the Martin Baker appreciation society (ie eject) before his aircraft becomes a submarine.

Now as to the Hyuga's deck shape, The short length does present some problems as does the asymmetric forward edge, but these are far from insurmountable. Once the threshold of the deck is reached and the nozzles are directed downwards at the 45 degree angle, the aircraft is no longer supported by it's wheels, but by the column of jet thrust from it's nozzles. Indeed the very short takeoff roll which can be employed by the Harrier involved rotating the nozzles downwards from the very start so that the aircraft is generating lift immediately, and when it reaches the end of the deck it's wheels are barely supporting any of the aircraft's weight. Of course fitting a ski jump would help matter greatly...
 

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Jeff Head

General
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With a ski jump launch, things get a lot easier. The 'runway', or the distance between the start of the takeoff run and becoming fully wingborne (about 130 knots for a Harrier) is in the previously mentioned instance of a 'flat' launch from an LHA/LHD in the region of about 900 ft, which given they only have about 800 ft to play with explains why they have to use the nozzles for extra lift at the end of the roll. Now put a 'ski jump' ramp in that takeoff roll about half way down (say 400 ft) and the aircraft will have reached about 80 knots as it leaved the end of the ramp. This is not enough to fly on it's wings alone, but the wings are still generating some lift and the nozzles are providing the rest plus further thrust to continue accelerating. The aircraft on leaving the ramp is in an arc that would otherwise see it rise before falling back down, just like a motorbike stunt rider jumping over Busses, trucks elephants, whatever looks impressive this week. The difference is that an aircraft as it is on the upwards leg of the jump is still subject to further acceleration from it's engine (which the motorbike isn't, not having it's wheels in contact with anything) and by the time it has reached the highest point of the arc it will be at flying speed (the aforementioned 130 knots) as well as about 200 ft altitude, at which point it flys away normally like any other aircraft. Compared to the 'flat deck' takeoff the USMC has to use, the ski jump method means if there is a problem during takeoff such as engine failure, the pilot has several more seconds to decide if he needs to join the Martin Baker appreciation society (ie eject) before his aircraft becomes a submarine.
As an example, here are some great pics from one of the most newly commissioned carriers,
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.

Pics of her harrier ops, as well as helo.

cavour05.jpg


cavour06.jpg


cavour07.jpg


cavour04.jpg


cavour03.jpg


NIce vessel.

cavour00.jpg


The Spanish
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is undergoing trials and will be next.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
Indeed, a lovely ship!

In terms of nations with what you could call "frontline carriers," i.e. ships that embark fighter aircraft, this is starting to look a bit like the 1950's/early 1960's. It's hard to believe now but back then you had 9 nations in the carrier club, U.S., U.K., France, Australia, Canada, Holland, Brazil, Argentina and India. That number could well be exceeded before much longer, as well as ROKN and JMSDF, the RAN may well get back in the game if they get F-35B's to go with the Canberra class LHD., and of course the big unknown is whenever China gets an operational CV.

There's going to be plenty to keep us carrier fans drooling for the next decade! :D
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
There's going to be plenty to keep us carrier fans drooling for the next decade! :D

Oh yes!

Check out this great news from the UK about the new "QE" class CVF. Some contracts are being awarded and money spent!

GMT, March 23, 2009 The construction of the Royal Navy's two future Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers continues to gain momentum with the announcement of £80million worth of equipment sub-contracts.
Artist's impression of the future carrier

The latest announcement on the carriers made this morning, Monday 23 March 2009, sees several UK companies being involved in the work to deploy offensive air power in support of the full spectrum of future operations.

The sub-contracts cover several aspects of the carriers including: £57m for insulation systems by Ticon Ltd UK, based in Glasgow, sustaining some 350 jobs; £25m for communication systems by Thales UK, Crawley site, West Sussex, which will secure up to 50 jobs; and £1m for water treatment by the Ormandy Group, based in Bradford, West Yorkshire.

Minister for Defence Equipment and Support Quentin Davies said: "Today's sub-contracts will help to strengthen UK industry sustaining over 400 jobs across a variety of companies, while also adding to the momentum of their construction programme.

"The Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers are vitally important to our future defence capabilities, allowing us to project air power at a time and place of our choosing."

Tony Graham, head of Capital Ships within MOD's Defence Equipment and Support, attended the signing ceremony at Thales UK and said: "The Aircraft Carrier Alliance has now placed sub-contracts for almost 40% of the total value of the materials and equipment required to build both ships, and we are pressing ahead into full scale production in the shipyards. The UK's future aircraft carriers are already off the drawing board and becoming a physical reality - the Queen Elizabeth Class."

The Glasgow-based Ticon Ltd UK will supply the insulation systems to be used throughout the ship which will prevent the transfer of noise and heat and protect the ship from the spread of fire.

Thales UK will cover both onboard and fleet-wide communications. Onboard it will ensure that that crew have access to information and are in communication with their colleagues across the ship at all times. The system will use internet networks to transmit data and voice in the same way as modern businesses and offices communicate. Fleet-wide (external to the ship) includes a high frequency system to provide long-range communications between the ship, other vessels and land bases.

The Bradford-based Ormandy Group will deliver equipment for treatment and supply of hot and cold fresh water to the accommodation spaces within the ships.

Last month Her Majesty the Queen gave her formal approval for the new class of aircraft carrier to be known as the 'Queen Elizabeth Class'. The giant hull sections that will make up the ships have been in construction since December of last year.

----

About the Queen Elizabeth Class.

The contract to build the two new Aircraft Carriers for the Royal Navy - HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, was signed on 3rd July 2008. The in-service dates announced at the time of the Main Gate, 2014 and 2016, have been deferred by 1 to 2 years following MOD’s Equipment Examination.

The carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed for the UK and represent a step change in Joint Capability. They will enable the delivery of increased strategic effect and influence around the world, at a time and place of the UK’s choosing, and will be a key component of the improved expeditionary capabilities needed to confront the diverse range of threats in today’s security environment.

Key Facts

The carriers will each provide 4 acres of sovereign territory with global access.
The Flight deck will support an air wing capable of delivering significant offensive air power to support the battle ashore for prolonged periods of time.
They will be capable of carrying the widest possible range of aircraft in support of operations.

The carriers are being specifically developed to provide a well found base for the UK version of the future 5th generation of the US Joint Strike Fighter.
A versatile and adaptable design will provide for a range of roles and configurations, through life.

The carriers will each weigh 65,000 tonnes, be 280m long and 70m wide. A ship of this size is necessary to deliver the quantity of air power required.

The ships will be capable of 25 knots.
They will have a total complement (with air group) of approximately 1500 people
Existing Contractual Commitments

Notable contracts placed by the ACA to date, by region, are as follows:

North East
Wholeship Pumps - £4M
Uptakes and Downtakes - £8M
Modular Cabins and Wet Spaces – £23M
Furniture Matrix - £4.5M

South East
Galley Equipment - £3.5M

South West
Vertical Landing Aids (VLA) - £7M
Gas Turbine - £19M
Integrated Plaform Management System (IPMS) - £21M
Low Voltage (LV) - £25M
Shaftline & Propeller - £22M

Midlands
Heavily Mechanised Weapons Handling System (HMWHS) – £33M
High Voltage (HV) - £79M

Yorkshire
Steel - £63M

Scotland
Aircraft Lifts - £13M
Doors and Hatches - £4M
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
Thanks Popeye! Just gives you some idea of the complexity of building a carrier and how many systems go into a major warship. Even things like the plumbing has to be taken care of!

I shouldn't be complaining about the CVF's, I'm just glad they're finally taking shape, but I really hope that when they enter service we still have enough of a navy left to make them worthwhile. :mad:
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Indeed, a lovely ship!

In terms of nations with what you could call "frontline carriers," i.e. ships that embark fighter aircraft, this is starting to look a bit like the 1950's/early 1960's. It's hard to believe now but back then you had 9 nations in the carrier club, U.S., U.K., France, Australia, Canada, Holland, Brazil, Argentina and India. That number could well be exceeded before much longer, as well as ROKN and JMSDF, the RAN may well get back in the game if they get F-35B's to go with the Canberra class LHD., and of course the big unknown is whenever China gets an operational CV.

There's going to be plenty to keep us carrier fans drooling for the next decade! :D
Well, without including Japan and the Hyuga (with a second already well under construction), the ROKN, and the PLAN, there are already currently nine countries operating 34 carriers (including the 11 US LHAs and LHDs which operate a wing of Harriers off of them on a full time basis) around the world today utilizing fixed wing aircraft,

You have:

United States: 22 (including 11 LHAs and LHDs)
United Kingdom: 3
Spain: 2
Italy: 2
France: 1
Russia: 1
India: 1
Brazil: 1
Thailand: 1

With India set to add another, China talking about two, the Japanese two (if they realize a fixed wing capability) the Australian plans, the new UK carriers, and the potential for the ROKN...yes, there is much to look forward to for aircraft carrier buffs.

That's why I created the:

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