Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Captain's log: Supplemental

Here's a diagram from the early studies into the deck layout for CVA-01; The difference in usable deck area between the angled and parallell deck layouts is noticeable. Also of note are the original catapults with CALE aircraft positioning gear, non watercooled JBDs and no Bridle catchers. These drawings date from around 1962-63 (enhanced for clarity), and also included below are some of the 1950s carrier studies. The twin island idea is included.
And now, finally, after all of these years, the UK will get her large carrier.

Should have had them 50 years ago, IMHO, but it is interesting to see the dual island design from back them turned into reality today.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Re: Captain's log: Supplemental

And now, finally, after all of these years, the UK will get her large carrier.

Should have had them 50 years ago, IMHO, but it is interesting to see the dual island design from back them turned into reality today.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I'll wager those French designers at THALES have been patting themselves on the back for being so innvative with the two island desiign... only for the likes of us to point out the British invented the idea 60 years ago! I'm enjoying all the naysayers fighting a rearguard action now grumbling that "they'll never be built! (they are being built as we speak), "They'll only build one" (The contract is for both) "They won't have any aircraft" Yes they will. No government would authorise the carriers and not buy aircraft for them. Political suicide. The Navy has allowed Frigates and destroyers to be traded for the carriers, but I think that was on the belief that when escort numbers drop too low, the public/political backlash would force the government to address the situation (probably in the next few years), by which time the carrier would be too far along to cut anyway.

Here's some plans for the Malta class carriers from around 1945: For scale the 4.5 inch turrets are basically the same as fitted to numerous destroyers and frigates postwar (4.5 inch mk 6). The second island was originally to house all the extra radar equipment coming in to service, and the idea was retained for the next generation of carriers that were designed in the early 50s (though not built).

With hindsight, yest the RN would have been better off investing their resources in building new ships instead of completing the refit of Victorious or fitting out Hermes, but the former was never expected to be so costly and the latter was two thirds finished. It would have been hard to convince those with no knowledge of naval matters or ship construction that starting from scratch would ultimately be a better choice. Victorious was expected to be in refit for only four years (not eight as it turned out) and the final cost was four times the original estimate. In the 50s the only limitation a small carrier would have would be in overall numbers of aircraft carried, not in the types it would be able to carry. Had Victorious and Hermes entered service just a few years earlier they would have had very impressive looking air groups numerically, during the era of Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms and Skyraiders both ships would have carried over 50 aircraft each and that was seen as more than adequate. The following generation of Sea Vixens and Scimitars were basically twice the size of the aircraft they replaced (and twice the capability) so the carrier were percieved to be less capable based on the numbers they carried to a degree.
 

Attachments

  • Malta_1.jpg
    Malta_1.jpg
    154.4 KB · Views: 23
  • malta_1_1.jpg
    malta_1_1.jpg
    117.8 KB · Views: 16
  • malta_2.jpg
    malta_2.jpg
    93.2 KB · Views: 16
  • habbakuk_sketch.jpg
    habbakuk_sketch.jpg
    75.8 KB · Views: 21
  • 1952RNCV.jpg
    1952RNCV.jpg
    27 KB · Views: 19
Last edited:

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thanks for all the info on the proposed RN CVs of yesteryear. If I could change RN naval history I would have them with 6 CVs operating with the interest of the United Kingdom. With assignments with NATO and the USN.

The Falklands War may have never happened if the RN had real CTOL CVs to deploy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On to a different subject.

Italy is planning to build an LPH/Sea Control ship.

The ship is similar in size to an old USN Iwo Jima class PLH. But has the look of an Tarawa or Wasp class.

All in all an excellent design.

The only thing I would be concerned with is this;

In principle the ship will be designed and built in accordance with merchant ships regulations and
standards, pursuing high reliability and easy maintainability.

Naval standards should be used in my opinion. Using merchant standards is probally a cost cutting move.

"The renewal of the Italian Navy Fleet in the 2010-2020 time-frame" by Admiral Tortora, head of the italian navy new constructions department.

The need for new, more performing LHDs is strongly perceived as one of the higher priorities of the
Navy. As far as the operational scenarios are concerned, missions and tasks will be carried out
mostly in the proximity of coastal waters and/or in narrow and shallow basins.
Threat is considered mostly asymmetrical, deriving from small terrorist groups, equipped with
medium-low technology off-the-shelf weapons. Recent events call for the necessity to keep a clear
tri-dimensional maritime and coastal picture against a wide spectrum of threats available to the
counterpart (i.e. fast boats, explosive pontoons and fishing boats, conventional or improvised naval
mines, radio controlled explosive aircraft and vessels, rockets, light artillery, etc.).
Less likely, but still possible, threats might be performed by air and naval conventional assets, such
as aircraft, frigates and destroyers or submarines.

- Operational Capabilities

The perspective tonnage of the ship is 16.000-17.000, large enough to accommodate 600 marines,
plus about 120 crew members and about 130 add-ons for the flight and medical components. On
the whole, the accommodation capacity required is 850 berths, with different accommodation
standards.
It is considered that a low cost active defence systems should be sufficient to provide a limited selfdefence
capability to counter fast boats and UAV.
It is also required to include passive and active measures in order to ensure the survivability of the
ship in case of a mine or torpedo explosion, as well as to adopt torpedo detection or deception
systems on board.
In principle the ship will be designed and built in accordance with merchant ships regulations and
standards, pursuing high reliability and easy maintainability.
Although the type of propulsion is not yet defined, it is deemed necessary to be able to maintain a
continuous speed of at least 20-22 knots with sea state 3, even though a NATO requirement for this
type of unit foresees a speed in excess of 24 knots. The ship shall have an endurance up to 7000
nautical mile at 16 knots.

- Macro-function “Amphibious Warfare”

The ship shall be able to transport, launch, support and withdraw a Landing Force and the related
assets. Therefore, she shall have:
⇒ capability to transport, land and re-embark a CLF Brigade Command Post;
⇒ accommodation for the landing forces for up to 5 combat days;
⇒ capability to launch – through 5 spots3 – up to 8 helicopters, 6 capable of carrying out a
company’s assault operations and 2 capable of close air support;
⇒ capability to recover in hangar up to 5 helicopters;
⇒ capability to launch and recover amphibious personnel and assets (for a total of 1.200
linear meters, equivalent to about 180 vehicles including tanks and armored vehicles)
using also the ship’s dock and the 50% of the flight deck4;
⇒ a ship’s dock made of suitable structure to carry 4 LCM (Landing Craft, Mechanized)
and to allow vehicle loading and unloading activities of 2 LCM inside the dock
simultaneously (the possibility to make the ship interoperable with Landing Craft Air
Cushion and/or Partial Air Cushion has to be evaluated);
⇒ a rail trolley system over the dock deck capable to move at least 30 tons of materials;
⇒ adequate flexibility for shipload reshaping (vehicles and materials) also at sea, thanks
to rail trolley/moving palette system/supply elevators, foreseeing possible use of the
hangar if necessary.

- Macro-function “Command Control Communications” (C3)

The ship will be fitted with a C3 integrated system, including wide-band satellite systems and local
area networks for information delivery inside the ship. The possibility to board and operate a
Composite Warfare Command tasked as CATF/CLF has to be defined.
However, the ship will be provided with adequate C4I capabilities in order to be able to maintain a
local air/maritime picture for the co-ordination of the naval and land assets in the operational
scenario.

- Macro-function “Defence”

The ship shall be provided with self-defence capability (artillery and machine-guns systems) against
asymmetrical threats coming from all the directions and filtered in through the security framework
provided by the escort combat ships.
Besides, the ship shall have the capability to operate under CBRN threat and, in case of this
occurrence, to provide collective defence to personnel and on-board equipments/systems, in order
to permit:
⇒ the recovery and reclaiming of personnel and vehicles;
⇒ the manoeuvre of the ship, in safeness, outside the contaminated area.

- Macro-function “Medical Support”

The active role that this ship must be able to play in disaster relief situations is a design constraint
of high relevance. As far as the possible missions are concerned, the medical arrangements should
be able to ensure at least a “ROLE 2 PLUS”5 for managing the following events:
⇒ surgical reception and treatment of casualties evacuated from the combat areas;
⇒ management of a massive medical emergency (crash on the flight deck, reception of
personnel evacuated by another attacked or burnt down ship);
⇒ surgery management of the embarked personnel;
⇒ radiological and laboratory diagnostics,
⇒ routine or emergency medical assistance;
⇒ dental treatment.
At least 50 beds for in-patients and an adequate number of beds for intensive/semi-intensive care
patients (with at least 15 days autonomy) shall be provided, as well a modern hospital area
equipped with a triage reception to select casualties from the battle field and the ships. Telemedicine
equipments will be available to increase the treatment capabilities.
In order to arrange the above mentioned medical structures, an area of approximately 700 square
meters is required. In case of disaster relief event, the ship’s medical capabilities shall be increased
through a system of modular medical shelters.
In order to meet the requirement specifically related to disaster relief activities, the ship will be
equipped with:
⇒ a fresh water desalinization system capable of supplying up to 150 tons per day through
pumping pipelines;
⇒ emergency power system to supply shore buildings accommodating up to 1000 people.

Landing Helicopter Dock:

Length Over All 165,0 m
Length Between Perpendicular 147,0 m
Beam max 31,0 m
Full Load Displacement abt. 16.000 t
Corresponding Draft abt. 6,3 m
Flight deck height abt. 24,5 m
Main Garage Deck height 8,5 m
Speed: 22 n
Range: 7.000 nm at cruise speed
Accommodation: up to 900 (150 crew+700 troops)
Command & Control: up to 300 m2 available
Flight deck: 5 spots for EH 101 or 7 smaller helos
Helo hangar: parking area for 5 EH 101
Vehicle deck: up to 1.200 metric lanes
Hospital area: 700 m2 + 1.000 m2 convertible area.
Floodable dock: 50 x 15 m
Vehicle ramps 1 stern 1 side (60 t)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Looks like a follow on to the San Giorgio class. They have had interesting rebuilds, to increase the available/usable flight deck space, something I have advocated for just about all the 'through deck' ships around. At sea, on any aviation oriented ship, you can never have too much flight deck space to spot and operate aircraft.
 

Attachments

  • giorgio4a.jpg
    giorgio4a.jpg
    62.1 KB · Views: 10
  • 11.jpg
    11.jpg
    123.1 KB · Views: 13
  • 01a.jpg
    01a.jpg
    82.7 KB · Views: 7
  • 01.jpg
    01.jpg
    101.2 KB · Views: 12
  • 02a.jpg
    02a.jpg
    58 KB · Views: 7

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The JMSDF takes possesion of it's "DDH" :rolleyes: JDS Hyuga. I think the actual capacity of the ship is closer 24-30 helos rater than the 14 helos the JMSDF claims. However knowing the luxurious crew accommodations required by the JMSDF as compared to other navies perhaps there would not be enough room aboard for support personnel to maintain that many helos. And the fully loaded displacement of the ship is closer to 22,000 tons.

Jeff..do you have any fresh info on this ship??

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


13,950-ton JDS Hyuga (16DDH) is handed over to Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force from its builder IHI Marine United Inc. in Yokohama, southwest of Tokyo, Wednesday, March 18, 2009. The newly-built helicopter-carrying destroyer, similar in design to a small aircraft carrier, is the the largest Japanese warship since World War II, deploying three helicopters on the flight deck while carrying up to 11 others on the hangar deck inside, Kyodo News said.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Jeff..do you have any fresh info on this ship??
Just that the second is well under construction and is supposed to be launched this year.

Here's my favorite pic so far of the Hyuga (take a look at the full size image).

16ddh0.jpg
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Is it just me or have they actually marked out a 'Harrier' style runway on deck in the guise of US LHA style helo markings? Beautiful ship. Also they seem to be down playing her size by quoting the unladen displacement instead of the full load figure...
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Is it just me or have they actually marked out a 'Harrier' style runway on deck in the guise of US LHA style helo markings? Beautiful ship. Also they seem to be down playing her size by quoting the unladen displacement instead of the full load figure...
Harrier? ...or JSF? hehehe.

I believe utlimately they will have that capability. Whether they exercise it or not, or wether the deck has been designed for that jet blast, I do not know.

That is one reason I show two of my pics on my :

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


for the Hyuga thus:

16ddh5.jpg


16ddh6.jpg
 
Last edited:

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Quite so Jeff, I was alluding to the possibility in the next few years of USMC Harriers conducting cross decking excercises from the Hyuga and her sister(s). Much like when the Italian carrier Garibaldi first entered service she was not allowed to operate Harriers of her own, but played host to RN Sea Harriers amongst others for the purposes of 'NATO Co operation'...
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Excellent responses gents..I'd like to see IDonT get in the discussion.

I can envision.. someday ..in the not to distance future. USMC F-35s operating off the deck of Hyuga. Along with joint operations with the UK, France Italy, Spain & maybe Australia ..all operating F-35s and "cross decking" with each other..And with a Ford or Nimitz class CVN lurking nearby with F-35Cs..:D

My dream may some day be true. It's not an "fan boy" pipe dream. The ships are well on there way under construction or are in comission. And my dream could be a reality.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top