Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Finn McCool

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I agree with you.

A CVN will take them at least that long to build and put to sea given their history and current financial situation. Given that, it is actually likely that they will never get it done.

I am just interested in the similarity of design in what the Russians are proposing and what the Chinese are planning on. At this point it is much more likely that the Chinese will actually proceed and put hulls in the water.

My sentiments exactly. The Russian Navy is in pretty sorry shape. I think that these reports of massive carrier building projects are just wishful thinking.

Carriers shouldn't even be their first priority, considering Russia's geography and the traditional historical role of the Russian Navy, they should focus first on rebuilding their nuclear detterent capability with the Borei class, and rebuild their attack boat force as well. Then more modern destroyers and frigates to provide the necessary escort force for a modern carrier and then carriers last, since they are really the least necessary thing for Russia right now.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
We should have kept her! Wasn't my idea to sell her off! Here's a shot of me back in 1985 when Hermes was laid up in No3 Basin at Pompey. She was (and is) an impressive sight close up.
 

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Neutral Zone

Junior Member
We should have kept her! Wasn't my idea to sell her off! Here's a shot of me back in 1985 when Hermes was laid up in No3 Basin at Pompey. She was (and is) an impressive sight close up.

Love the haircut! ;)

Certainly Hermes is another lost opportunity for the RN. It says something about the shortsightedness of our defence policies that Hermes has stayed in front line service longer than Invincible has. :( After the Falklands Hermes could have been re-roled back into service as an LPH and as a reserve for the Invincibles. She could have been in RN service into the 1990's. India has got sterling service from and given the state of their replacement carrier programmes they are going to need every last bit of service that they can coax out of her! Bear in mind that her construction was actually started back during WW2, she was laid down (then called HMS Elephant) on June 21st 1944, just 2 weeks after D-Day! Construction was suspended at the end of the war but was resumed in 1952. That means that parts of her are almost 65 years old!
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Bear in mind that her construction was actually started back during WW2, she was laid down (then called HMS Elephant) on June 21st 1944, just 2 weeks after D-Day! Construction was suspended at the end of the war but was resumed in 1952. That means that parts of her are almost 65 years old!

That's a testimony to those British citizens that built her. And all those that have served on her and maintained her both Indian and British.
 
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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Love the haircut! ;)

Certainly Hermes is another lost opportunity for the RN. It says something about the shortsightedness of our defence policies that Hermes has stayed in front line service longer than Invincible has. :( After the Falklands Hermes could have been re-roled back into service as an LPH and as a reserve for the Invincibles. She could have been in RN service into the 1990's. India has got sterling service from and given the state of their replacement carrier programmes they are going to need every last bit of service that they can coax out of her! Bear in mind that her construction was actually started back during WW2, she was laid down (then called HMS Elephant) on June 21st 1944, just 2 weeks after D-Day! Construction was suspended at the end of the war but was resumed in 1952. That means that parts of her are almost 65 years old!

Re the haircut. I was 15 at the time! Actually it's a lot longer now... here are two recent pictures of me to balance things out: As you can see I haven't lost my looks after twenty years!:nana::D:rofl:

Also some pics of Hermes during her RN days, post 80-81 refit but pre Falklands. As you can see the 'Invincible' type air group she had been allocated of five Sea Harrier FRS1s and nine Sea King HAS2s was not even half her capacity. During the Falklands war she carried up to twenty Harriers as well as a sizable number of helos at any given time. The lack of AEW capability was a sore point though. I would like to have retained her as a strike carrier, with two twelve aircraft sqns of SHARs alongside another twelve Sea Kings, nine HAS2/5 and three AEW2. That would have been more in line with her capacity, and much more impressive when 'showing the flag' overseas IMHO.
 

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Obi Wan..just suppose the FAA(fleet air arm) had not been dis-banned and the RN still had "real" CVs.. What would you suspoe the evolution of the RN CV would have been.? How many CVs? What would have been their role in the Falklands war? So What if?:confused:
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Obi Wan..just suppose the FAA(fleet air arm) had not been dis-banned and the RN still had "real" CVs.. What would you suspoe the evolution of the RN CV would have been.? How many CVs? What would have been their role in the Falklands war? So What if?:confused:

Hmmmmmmmmm..... We have to go back to the 'Healy Axe' of 1966 to change course here. State of play: RN has five ctol CVs and two LPHs in service. One CV (HMS Centaur) has just paid off into reserve despite only having seen ten years service, as she is too small to operate a full air group. Another (HMS Ark Royal) has just paid off to begin a mid life refit to enable her to operate the projected new fighter aircraft (F-4K Phantom FG1) that is on order. Of the other three only one is suitable to operate these aircraft, so a new design of carrier (CVA-01) is on the table awaiting approval. Four years earlier the project was envisioned as covering five CVAs to replace the existing fleet one for one. This has gradually dropped to four and now three hulls as the minimum viable number to maintain a carrier fleet. Let's assume sanity prevails for a change and the project gets the go ahead. CVA-01 enters service around 1974 (projected in 72, but lets be realistic here!) and takes over from HMS Victorious. Ark Royal completes her refit in mid 1970 and is fiited for 4 Sea Cat SAM launchers as extra time is allowed in dock. Eagle is refitted to operate Phantoms in 1968 and embarkes the first FAA F4 sqn (899NAS) in 1969. Ark gets the second (892NAS) in 1970 and the third sqn (893NAS) reforms in 1972, albeit land based at Yeovilton until CVA-01 is ready. Hermes remains as a ctol carrier with Sea Vixens (890NAS) and Buccs (803NAS) to cover for delays with CVA-01. Meanwhile both Albion and Bulwark remain in service as Commando Carriers.

CVA-02 enters service around 1979, and relieves Ark Royal. Eagle continues until 1984 when relieved by CVA-03. Hermes remains in service but from 1975 onwards sails as an ASW carrier primarily with Sea Kings, but keeps her cats and traps to act as a training carrier. Embarks Buccaneers for excercises. MOD keep trying to offload her to India or Australia quietly during this period. RN keep finding reasons to keep her in service as she is so flexible and cheap to run compared to CVAs...

AEW Gannets are phased out as CVA's enter service, last flight going with Eagle in 84. Replaced by Hawkeyes for commonality with USN. FG1 Phantoms are only purchased in historical numbers (48), enough for two frontline sqns, a training sqn and some attrition spares. F-4K is designed for smaller decks, or rather shorter catapults. CVAs will have 250ft BS6 cats so can operate standard US J79 equipped F4s. Price difference means three J79 F4s for the price of two Spey-F4s. British version of F-4J/N is designated FG3 and enough are bought for the CVAs, entering service with 893NAS in 72, the FG1s eventually equipping the training sqn only after 84. Also S.3 version of Buccaneer is developed with new avionics. Meanwhile, over in crab land, RAF joins the bandwagon with the RN after TSR 2 is canned and buys both F-4 (j79 engined, either F-4J for commonality with RN or F-4E for commonality with USAF. Take your pick) and buys larger number of Buccaneers, and pools most of them with RN trying to keep all airframes to a common standard.

In mid 70s Grumman makes an effort to sell F-14s to the RN and RAF as Phantom replacements. (Pause to salivate a moment... OK I'm back). F-14s partnered with Buccaneer S3s and Hawkeyes on two of the RN's active carriers in 1982. I think the Junta in Argentina will seriously think twice about invading...:nono::D
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
PART 2:

Having dealt with the bigger carriers, I'll turn to the four Centaur class. Hermes as said above stays on as a ctol carrier until the mid 70s when the Sea Vixens are finally withdrawn, then swithces to ASW operations. Albion and Bulwark continue with LPH ops as they had been all through the 70s and into the eighties. Centaur... weel she was last heard of in reserve and acting as an accomodation ship for other carriers in refit. Despite her small size, she was a relatively young ship with only ten years sea time. Her radar fit is as up to date as most of the RN at the time and she has two steam catapults. In 1968 the Dutch Karel Doorman suffered a boiler room fire and is withdrawn from service. With the RN staying in the carrier club, the Dutch decide to stay in too and negotiations begin to aquire Centaur. She is transferred in 1969 and refitted in Holland, gaining new Dutch radars and a fully angled deck as well as bridle catchers for her catapults. As she is a larger ship then her predecessor, consideration is given to adding a third (fighter) sqn to her air group, and second hand Skyhawks are bought from the US. She remains in service into the 80s.

Harrier trials begin as historically with a view to operating them at sea, not as a replacement for the Phantoms and Buccaneers, but to supplement them. A plan is devised and gradually modifeied throughout the 70s to operate Harriers in the CAS role from the Commando carriers, mirroring the USMC's use of the Harrier at the same time. Although the early sqns are RAF, one is allocated a number of RN pilots to gain experience of the aircraft and ease shipboard operations. Plans for a 'Sea Harrier' are put forward in the early 70s, alongside plans for the 'Escort Cruiser' that was part of the CVA-01 scheme from the early 60s. This evolves into a three ship program to replace (in order) Bulwark, Albion and Hermes. The new Invincible class is ordered in 1973, and from this time the Commando Carriers begin to operate more frequently as ASW Helo carriers when not on ambhibious ops (they always had this capability from the early 60s). Bulwark pays off in 1979 as Invincible begins her sea trials. Albion pays off 1983 as Illustrious enters service and Hermes pays off 1985 as Indomitable is commissioned. Albion is fitted with a 12 degree ski jump in 1980, and operates a Sea Harrier sqn from then on. Bulwark remains flat topped until the end. The Invincibles enter service as dual role ASW/Commando carriers, with one tasked for each role at any given time. India buys Albion, having already bought SHARs for Vikrant and more are bought for the new carrier. Hermes, still a ctol carrier, is overhauled and sold to ... well that's a whole new thread right there. My bet would be Australia, who after being offered the ship back in 82 agree to keep Melbourne running for a few more years to cover the gap. Hermes as a ctol carrier raises Austrlia's capability to another level, and allows more aircraft types to potentially deploy from her decks. Again, another whole thread debating that right there...
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Excellent response Obi Wan. You are indeed wise. :D

I'm trying to envision FAA Tomcats with FAA markings and colours.Very nice.

So you see the CVA programme of the 60s & 70s going through? Humm would they last until the QE class come into service? And in your what if scenairo would the FAA possibly buy other aircraft besides the ones you mentioned?
 
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