Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

asif iqbal said:

Make no difference, UK has a very high guard in the Daring Class, during a excercise a few years back a land based Eurofighter Typhoon was sent to attack a Daring Class DDG, the Typhoon was tasked to attack from a very high angle of attack fast and was to launch a stand off misisle, not only did the Daring detect, track and engage the missile it also engaged the Typhoon, nothing will pass this DDG it can scan from the sea to outer atmosphere and can see a tennis ball thrown in the air from 20km away

Four such DDG would ensure a circle of very tough defence against any air attack and can also direct fightes to the war zone

72 x F35C might have more firepower than 72 x F35B but that alone will not ensure you a win, to win you will need to commit two Nimitz carriers and field the full 144 fighters to ensure superiority because you have 4 of the worlds best DDG get past

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The question is can high performence radars like those on the Type 45 and the E-2D Hawkeye and land based radars that are even more powerful detect planes like the F-35 that suppose to be a stealth. If so then what is the use of a plane like the F-35 ? Who's performence and weapons loadout is below the average 4th gen fighter.

Franklin said:

Of course no one here believes that there will be a war between the US and Europe this is all academic and for fun. However i have to ask can the E2 Hawkeye's detect F-35's that suppose to be stealthy. And wouldn't enemy radars like those of a Type 45 pick up the E-2 Hawkeye and there for warn them that an attack is coming ?

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I think you are completely under estimating the extremely high standard and equipment of the Royal Navy

The sailors are trained to a level rarely seen, they are the best at what they do and warship magazine has put them in a class of their own when it comes to the people who lead these machines

Here's the UK government website link show talks about HMS Astute vs USS New Mexico I read about this when it happend in warship magazine

And here I quote "Our sonar is fantastic and I have never before experienced holding a submarine at the range we were holding USS New Mexico. The Americans were utterly taken aback, blown away with what they were seeing"



Anyone underestimating the Royal Navy will be in for a nasty suprise they are very well trained and equipped and very good at what they do

perfume said:

That and because of the costs and the state of the economy at the time of the decision. I believe if the STOBAR/CATOBAR decision were to be made now or in a couple years time, they would have gone for the CATOBAR. We could see that Cameron really wanted catapults and only made a U turn when he knew that the UK's military budget couldn't support building 2 CATOBAR QEs.

I agree with Jeff here, the only enemy I see the UK facing by itself in a conflict in the next 20 years is Argentina. With current trends, the RN ain't gonna need no CATOBAR, E-2s or F35Cs to deal with what Argentina has in any Falklands scenario.

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CATOBAR or not CATOBAR the result doesn't change

If RN operated two CATOBAR they simpy couldn't surge both, but they can surge two STOBAR

Surging two STOBAR with 72 x F35B is much better than a single CATOBAR with just 36 x F35C, this is why I am 100% behind the decision to switch back to STOBAR

asif iqbal said:

Doesn't matter how you weight it up there's no way a single Nimitz Class strike group could trump two Queen Elizabeth Carrier strikes group no chance not in a 100 years, you are talking about each single Royal Navy carrier having two Daring Class DDG let alone the capability of just one, four Daring Class would ensure nothing screens past them without them knowing, you are also missing out two very very formidable SSN two Astute Class which could hold of single Virginia Class.

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Sorry my friend, Asif, you are missing out on, and wholly diminshing the huge difference the long range E-2D AEW makes in being able to locate and then direct strikes against an OPFOR.

Without this significant AEW coverage similar to a Hawkeye, the Queen Es would be horribly dis-advantaged...both of them, against any single Nimitz. That's just the hard cold reality, and there is no way around it.

Out in the far reaches of the ocean, far from land based air, where they would most likely meet, the US carrier would find the UK carriers and then be able to relentlessly hammer them, the large strike forces launching their standoff weapons against the Darings in large numbers until they were overpowered, and then going for the carrier.

Nothing is a sure thing...but a single Nimitz with its airwing and the AEW, EW capabilities of the Prowlers and Growlers and then the F-35C and Superhornets, would have a huge trump card on the UK carriers. You add the CDG CVN into that mix with the Queen Es, then that is a different matter, because it does have that AEW component and its air wing to boot. In that case it will take two US Nimitz CVNs.

The decision to go STOBAR took away the ability for the UK carriers to enjoy the huge and critical advanatge. As a CATOBAR they would have had the Hawkeye, the F-35C and probably the Growler. As a STOBAR the have none of that...but the US does.

In addition, the four US escorts are going to have 448 missiles between them. The four RN escorts are going to have 192.

The Astutes will stay close in to the carriers to protect them, as will the US SSNs assigned to the CSG...but the US enjoys such a huge numerical advantage in SSNs that they would have numerous hunter/killer SSNs searching for the Eurepean SSNs and CSG and engaging them.

Anyhow, I believe the UKs Queen Elizabeth carriers are great vessels. Against any potential foe in the foreseeable future, they will be more than adequate...but not against a US CVN.

As to the UK CATOBAR not being able to surge two and the UK STOBAR being able to surge both...that is simply not correct. Both of those vessels engineering spaces would be very, very similar except for the cats. Both of the types of vessels at some point will have to have scheduled, long term overhauls for maintenance, interspersed by short term overhauls.

During the short term maintenance periods, yes, either CATOBAR or STOBAR would be able to quickly surge and go in relief or in concert with the other carrier, and the UK could put two to sea at a time.

However, both the STOBAR and CATOBAR variety will have a very difficult time doing that during any major, long term, scheduled overhaul. As a result, there will be times when there will only be one UK carrier availabe and that would be true for either CATOBAR or STOBAR. The decision to change from CATOBAR to STOBAR, IMHO, was purely couched in finances (which over the long term do not make sense), and were probably far more political in nature playing to particular constituencies of the PMs making those decisions.

Obi Wan...could you weigh in here?

Anyhow, sorry we disagree Asif...but it is clear we do. Outside of national pride, there are certain critical technical realities in play here that make what I am communicating to you trancsend the nationality...it would hold true if the roles were reversed.

As it is, as I have said several times now...it is really immaterial. The two forces will not be pitted against one another in combat, so there is absolutely no sense in getting too worked up about it.

kwaigonegin said:

In war, the trick is to detect the other guy before he detects you! that's really about it. It's the very basic of fundementals of hunting.. whether it's deer hunting or hunting naval ships or subs. If a deer or turkey sees you first then you might as well pack up and go home.

For someone to attack someone they have to know where the other party is at first. For you to win you need to know where he is first before he knows where you are.

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Precisely.

kwaigonegin said:

The question you need to ask is under wartime conditions can an E-2D detect a Type 45 first or the other way around?

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The E-2D will not be the one over the carrier. The Type 45 detecting an E-2D does not mean it has found the carrier. It only means it has found an aircraft searching for the UK carrier with a group of F-35C or F/A-18E escorts...and probably at a signioficant off bore asimuth to the US carrier.

OTOH, an E-2D finding a Type 45 means he is hard on the hunt for the carrier...and the US force will attack that Type 45 in any case until it is rendered incapable of fighting back.

The E-2D will be siituated at 30,000 feet, the Daring will be on the ocean. The US force will almost certainly find the QE force first...and then will engage it as many time as necessary to overpower the Darings...either through damage or destruction, or just exhasutinf their supplies. They carry only 48 missiles each, and not all of them are LR shots.

As I said, I have nothing but the highest respect for the Queen E vessels, even as STOBAR, they will be very effective. but they have been hobbled in terms of AEW. Sad but true.

It's the type of political decision that was made that hurt the UK, like the US cutting off F-22s at 190 or so aircraft. Short sighted, and used for political effect...but not in the long term interest.

A USN CVBG will more than be able to take on two RN CVBGs.

Unforutnately that is simply because the RN's CVBG escorts are simply underwhelming.

I hear two type 45s, and two frigates, an SSN and a tanker are the norm for a single CVBG. Even if we double that for two CVBGs operating in concordance, a single USN CVBG will have at least two DDGs and two CGs with them, and at least a single SSN -- probably more.

Add to that the benefit of fixed wing AEW and a more potent strike oriented airwing, along with the more inferior offensive and defensive capabilities of a Type 45 compared to a burke or tico (never mind a flight iii burke), based on missile and VLS count in particular.



If the two RN CVBGs operate as independent units with a common goal rather than a single entity, they may be able to use their more liquid disposition to trap the USN carrier and her escorts.

But fact is, the lack of fixed wing AEW, as well as the inferior numbers of the royal navy's escort fleet, means even two RN CVBGs may prove weaker than a full strength USN CVBG.
The type 45, for all the boasting the RN does, at the end of the day isn't that different to the world's other PAR equipped destroyers, and its radar and missile capabilities are in line with the rest of the world's. The difference is, other navies dont' feel the need to constantly beat their own drums.

Okay, we have beat this US CSG against RN carrier CSG to death, It is so improbable that the USA vs RN discussion is meaningless. Except for a request to Obi Wan Russell, who's opinion on RN capabilities we should all respect, regarding the importance (or lack thereof) of strong AEW capabilities in any CSG, let's stop the arguement over the US Navy Carriers and how they may do in a war against the RN's two Queen Elizabeth class carriers.



Please, let's get back to specific United Kingdom military news and discussions regarding that.

I know I was a part of this discussion and I apologize for being a part of taking the thread off topic.

Thanks.

On that note here is the update from Prince of Wales




HMS Prince of Wales – Ship Two
HMS Prince of Wales has also achieved many significant milestones. The lower blocks are under construction in various yards around the UK and making good progress.
LB02 underwent its final link up when ring C joined rings D, E, F and G which form the rest of the block and will be consolidated over the coming weeks. The fourth and final propulsion motor was installed in LB04; it is now awaiting the arrival of the diesel generators.

With HMS Prince of Wales’ mast cap currently undergoing testing and preparation for its inspection at the end of the month, there is a good symmetry that outlines the two very different stages the ships are at. While HMS Queen Elizabeth’s mast cap rests atop the forward island, HMS Prince of Wales’ mast cap rests in the factory; a brief reminder of the tasks that lie ahead.

This is one expensive operation for the UK. In a back of the envelope calculation the two ships will cost about 10 billion $ and the 72 F-35B will cost about 14 billion dollars. And then there are the helicopters and other equipment that goes on the carriers. That's more than 24 billion dollars, for two VSTOL carriers.

For QE class, 2 ships, the original price was 3.5 billion Livres, now 6.2 !! but " good news" for RN she will only pay half of the additional cost, although initially it was to be 90 %.