Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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Albion and Bulwark have a tentative OSD (Out of Service Date) of 2030, not 2020. If it was the latter then the replacement programme would be in full swing now. They are still regarded as 'new' ships in the RN. Our amphibious doctrine has no place for LHDs at present, though some sem to regard them as miracle ships they are not, good though they are. The well deck at the rear can only be used when the ship is stationary and at anchor (unless you are using LCACs of which the UK has none). Our doctrine is based around a first wave of troops being landed from over the horizon by helicopter from an LPH, to secure the beach head, and only when this is secure do the second wave heavy vehicles (eg tanks and APCs) come ashore from the LPDs (Albion class) and LSDs (Bay class). Ocean carrys some vehicles as part of this operation, and has a stern ramp to unload them onto a Mexefloat when the ship is anchored. If she had been fitted with a wel deck she would either have to be 5000 tonnes bigger or sacrifice a similar amout of internal volume. Her design was based on requirements to carry a certain amount of troops and a certain amount of vehicles, and to do so at an affordable price. Making her an LHD would have been both costly and unnecessary, resulting in the order being cancelled.
True the drive for cheapness did result in some economies going too far, but most of these have since been corrected and she is today a very capable ship and not on the point of falling apart at the seems as some seem to think. We are already hearing rumours the Illustrious may be extended in service beyond 2014 to match up with QE's service entry (Lusty's crew will transfer over to QE) and also Ocean may be extended in service past 2020, simply becasue she will still be needed.
Another great video on MiG-29K Fulcrum-D landing on the Vikramaditya form the pilots perspective and a great take off video.
[video=youtube;o4iNW6nsaj0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o4iNW6nsaj0#![/video]
[video=youtube;6lCeNhK46bw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCeNhK46bw&feature=watch_response[/video]
[video=youtube;o4iNW6nsaj0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o4iNW6nsaj0#![/video]
[video=youtube;6lCeNhK46bw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCeNhK46bw&feature=watch_response[/video]
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There is really no problem, Jeff. With the wing tilted 30 deg rather than 90 the rotors will be free from the deck and the aircraft can accelerate very nicely and use the ski ramp to decrease the take off run length. An overload of 30% or would enable a huge increase in range.
An early aircraft with variable incidence was the Blohm+Voss BV 144. This aircraft was meant te replace the Ju-52 in commercial service and a prototype was built in France. It was flown by the French in 1945 but with the availability of thousands of Dakota's development was prematurely ended. A better known aircraft with variable incidence was the Chance-Vought F-8 but this of course couldn't tilt its thrust.
As for helicopters using a ski ramp - I've never heard of it. But helicopters can carry a considerable overload when using a take off run because of the decrease in induced drag due to the forward speed. If I operated a large helicopter from a ship with ski ramp I would calculate the advantages and disadvantages and try it out if the advantages predominate.
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It does have the capability, in terms of clearance, to actually tit the props up to 45 degress for STOL puposes...but I have never seen one land this way or take off. That is probably because all of my experience is with them aboard ship. Because of their size (much larger than a Harrier of JSF) and the greater potential of obstruction, I believe the policy may well be for strict VTOL aboard ship and indeed, that is all I have ever seen. But clearly on land, where the dangers of obstruction are much less, a STOL takeoff or landing, could easily, as you say, take place. I just do not think we will see it onboard ship...but who knows? Perhaps one day they will..
I am very well acquainted with the F-8. My father worked at Vought for 48 years and was the lead Aerodynamic Engineer on the F-7, the F-8 and the A-7, as well as the aborted XC-142, which has more relevence to this discussion.delft said:
I later worked at Vought myslef for a number of years, working on first the A-7P and then later the MLRS system.
As for helicopters using a ski ramp - I've never heard of it. But helicopters can carry a considerable overload when using a take off run because of the decrease in induced drag due to the forward speed. If I operated a large helicopter from a ship with ski ramp I would calculate the advantages and disadvantages and try it out if the advantages predominate.[/QUOTE]
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Great videos! Thanks!
In the first video the Russian crew seems very chatty as they are on finals approaching the carrier. Notice the automated female warning voice that interjects into the radio chatter.
In the second video the new pri-fly the Indians requested built from the side of the island can be seen as the Mig-29K starts its takeoff roll.
That Mig-29K sure looks sweet. Good design
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The Chance Vought F-8 with its variable incidence wing was a very technically advanced aircraft, but the follow on A-7, while a little simpler had one of the best safety records of any fighter of the day. Losing two Raptors seems terrible today, but the truth is when jumping in any of the early fighter jets required a couple of steelies, losing aircraft and flight crew was an unfortunate, but not an unusual occurance. I usually try to drive by and look at the little A-7 mounted on a pylon in Edwardsville, Il. it is indeed a gorgeous and well balanced aircraft, it is mounted at a slight nose up attitude and looks like its beginning its pull out from a low level strafing run.LOL
Yes, I honestly believe both the Hornet and SHornet would do well off the ramp, maybe not as much Hoss as the 29K? maybe more, but a very honest low speed airframe, that manages high alpha in a very predictable manner!
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